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Episode 14: Kym Fleet & David Hanton Show Notes

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Hi folks, this week on the Ocean Sailing Podcast, we’re down at the Gold Coast City Marina. We’re here with Kym from the Gold Coast City Marina and with David from Bradford Marine and we’ve got an episode today that’s probably a little bit more technical than what we normally do and we’re going to focus on some of the important things around boat maintenance and taking care of your hull, decisions and choices around paint selection, particularly around anti-foul and also some thoughts around steel versus wood versus fibre glass. 

If you’re in the market to buy but you’re not really sure about some of the differences then obviously considering some of the maintenance issues whether they go with those types of hulls it’s going to maybe help guide you along the way. So guys, welcome along with us today, thanks for joining me. Let’s start off with the Gold Coast City Marina facility, so that’s where we are, it’s on the Coomera River, it’s about 90 minutes from Southport Yacht Club if you come here on incoming tide. So Kym, tell us about the history of the Gold Coast City Marina?

Gold Coast City Marina on prime land in the Coomera marine precinct

Kym Fleet: The Gold Coast City Marina, the concept was first thought up in the late 90’s. Obviously, it’s the biggest shipyard facility, marina facility in the southern hemisphere. So it was a fairly big call to make the decision to move forward with the facility as you said, its 90 minutes up the Coomera River from the broad water. Its 15 hectares in total, so it’s a huge site. We’ve got five hectares of concrete hardstand, we’ve got five hectares of sheds and about five hectares of water. So all in all it’s a huge facility. 

The hull was starting to be dug, the marina was started to be dug in about 2000 and it opened in 2001. The buildings were progressively built over a period of time, they didn’t start out with everything. So it was pretty well finished off by 2004, complete.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so interesting timing when you open up a facility of this size and you’ve got a large number of businesses based here. How did you manage kind of I guess rolling it out two or three years before the GFC and then having the weather I guess a bit of a storm during the GFC, and then how’s it faired since?

Kym Fleet: Yeah 2000, the marina industry in Australia was actually booming, there was lots of manufacturing going on, so the sun was shining and the birds were singing. It takes a lot to fill this facility and obviously a lot of that is the relationship we have with our tenants. We treat our tenants like customers because they probably are the most important part of the business to us. They bring their own customers into here. 

I describe it as a little airport, we provide all the infrastructure for those around us to do what they want to do, we provide the hard standing, the buildings and we provide the machinery as well, which is the lifting equipment. So we’ve got a couple of forklifts up to 12 tonne or 50 tonne travel lift and a 250 tonne traveller. So the whole facility, the whole process, there’s a lot behind the scenes that make it all tick. But one of the most important things to us is our tenants because they bring a lot to the business.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: How many tenants have you got here?

Kym Fleet: Today we got over 60. We’re very, very fortunate that the facility can cut with that amount of tenancy and we’re also are very fortunate that along the way we’ve managed to gather together a really good crew of people. They paid to be here and the part of that relationship is that we provide them with what they need and consequently they provide us with what we need. 

Steve Sammes and Kym Fleet of the Gold Coast City Marina with one of many awards

So in the end, it’s excellent for the customer coming in off the river with their boat. We can provide them with choices virtually for every aspect of marine maintenance and repair, the only thing we really don’t have here is a sailmaker and we’ve got one down the road so virtually everything else is covered at least twice if not three times.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So it’s pretty handy if you’re doing a refit or an upgrade that covers lots of different areas to have those tenants available nearby rather than having to pay for travel time for contractors to come from far and wide to do all sorts of what can become expensive jobs instead of small jobs?

Kym Fleet: Well, we’re regarded as a one stop shop in the marina industry. It is the biggest facility of its type in the southern hemisphere, not necessarily by its capability of lifting or by its volume of boats it holds in the marina, but the overall picture of the whole facility is we’ve got more tenants, more services, more hardstand and the total of that is, you’re right David in exactly what you say, you don’t have to leave the gate to get a service done here and ultimately you’ve got a couple of choices along the way too. 

Not everybody gets on with everybody. Some people do their work a little bit cheaper than others. So you’ve got the opportunity to get a couple of quotes somewhere along the line you’re going to start a relationship with somebody within the facility that you’re happy with the work they do and for the price they do it, ultimately, we don’t want to have your boat here once, we want to have your boat continually going forward. So it’s about building relationships and making sure ultimately the end of the day, we want people to leave the facility thinking, “Well that was good, I got what I wanted to get done, done. It was at a reasonable fair price and I’m happy with the end result.”

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and the facility here is actually part of an even wider marine precinct. It employs several thousand people. How many businesses actually are there in the total precinct, including the areas outside of the Gold Coast City Marina?

Kym Fleet: Yeah, that’s a good question. This precinct was first thought of back in the late 90’s and the reason for that is the marine industry in Australia was spread all over the place. Australia is a big place, lots of distance between each capital city and there was manufacturing going on in Victoria and New South Wales. Queensland government came up with a concept of getting everybody as many people as they could in a reasonably tight area.

At 250 tons there is not much they can't lift

On a good day there could be 5,000 people working in this facility. Most of them are manufacturing in Australia has done in or around the precinct now. Obviously there’s come some competition with servicing and shipyard facilities in the area, which is great. The biggest manufacturers of luxury boats in Australia are both here. The biggest manufacturer of aluminium boats in Australia is here, as well as all the sub services as well. 

There’s some big names in the industry here, we’ve got Volvo, we’ve got Mercers, we’ve got Riviera,  Maritimo, Quintrix, most of the big names are within the facility and consequently that attracts the smallest supplies as well and the smaller repair people as well. So all in all it’s a hub, it’s about 5,000 people, I don’t know the number of business but it’s certainly several hundred.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: With where you’re based, four or five hours motoring from here to sort of Manley and with all the yachts that go up and down the east coast each year for racing and cruising the various things, do you find that you get your fair share of the traffic from up the road in Morton Bay and those that are going to go up and down the coast as well coming here for servicing and for work.

Kym Fleet: Yeah most definitely. Our focus has changed a little bit over the last few years and I’d have to say that we’re getting more involved with collaborations with different businesses and different marinas. Southport Yacht Club’s an example of that. This year we’re getting involved with the 50th anniversary game, fishing tournament up in Cannes. The reason for that is there are lots of areas in the boating industry in Australia that we would like to be involved in. 

Obviously sailing is one of those, you’re aware of that. The game fishing federation is another one, obviously we got the capability of lifting big boats, and our top end is 250 tonne of about 40 odd meters. So there’s a lot of wide boats go up and down the coast this time of the year heading up to Hamilton Island for the racing and the game fishing season and everything else.

The idea of this facility is to attract as much of that as we can where our mentality has changed to the point where we’re starting to get into partnerships with different businesses up and down the East Coast to help us in attracting those people in. We’ve got the facility here to do it, we’ve got the tenants here to deal with all aspects of the boating industry. So it’s about being wise and utilising those tenants and the facility to their best and attracting people in.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. In terms of the depth, if people think you’re coming here, what’s the depth that we’ve got in the river from a keel depth point of view?

Kym Fleet: That is one of the issues that we face here because we’re as we said, an hour and a half up the river from the sea way or south port yacht club, the Gold Coast is an internal inland water way and it does suffer from the level of the river changing. We call it three and a half meters of dead low tide, at three and a half meters dead low tide we’ve never had anybody touch the bottom. There has just been a program put in place now and the dredging of the river has started. So from the seaway, all the way to Sanctuary Cove which is two thirds of the way to us has already been a program put in place.

Black Jack Too in the slings at Gold Coast City Marina

The spoils from that dredging is going back out to see because principally it’s silt and sand so that’s just being pushed back out in the ocean again and that’ll disappear in the currents. From Sanctuary Cave to us, there is a program in place, there’s the spoils yard being designated behind us here at forward road. The style of dredging changes because it goes from being a suck and dump to a suck and run situation. The programs in place.

When that’s finished we’ll be at five meters dead low tide, so there’s not too many boats around that we have the capability of lifting that won’t get to us and we don’t have the drama with it at the moment, we’re just cautious and we ask people to come in on an upcoming tide. If necessary we’ll send out a boat to help them come in and help them take the best course up the river also.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s pretty good. I mean that’s a lot of depth, and you’ve got more than that on the rising tide.

Kym Fleet: Some of the bigger boats that we get here, some of the big super yachts we call them, anything sort of over a hundred foot we regard as a super yacht. They tend to draw about three meters, boat’s like a north haven which is a big bilge keel, ocean going boat, they can draw a little bit more but we’ll just send that our boat. They can follow them up the river and as I said today, I certainly haven’t had any drama in my time here. We had a Volvo 60 here just prior of Christmas and drove over four motors and it just got in and out without any issues, we just had to time it on the tide. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, So if you’ve got anything less, you’ve got no problems.

Kym Fleet: Nota at all.

DH1: Okay great. So what’s the longest boats you’ve had in here?

Kym Fleet: We can work berths up to 200 feet, we’ve had a couple of 200 footers here just in the marina berths. We’ve got a couple of super yacht fingers out the front in the main river, we got plenty of pair there with 63 amp principally what’s ever needed out there. The real capabilities of the facility are anything from a tinny, we can deal with an eight foot tinny without any problems at all, and we’ve got a 250 boat dry store facility in the end of the marina. As far as our maximum lifting capacity goes, 42 meters by 10 meters by 250 tonne is what we call our maximum. 

There’s not too many of those boats around on the coast. As I’ve said, we deal with a lot of super yachts which are anything from a hundred to 130 to 140 feet long and they tend to be about as heavy as they are long. So you’re talking 150, 160 tonne. We’ve had a couple of 200 tonners up here. We lift a lot of boats. This financial year, which is about to be completed, we’ll be at about 1,700 job sheets. So that’s 1,700 lifts out of the water. We don’t get another mark for going back in the water so it’s purely job sheets. So that’s anything from an eight foot tinny to 150 foot super yacht. So that’s a lot of volume.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: A lot of volume. And if you’re a typical yachtie, these kind of tonnages sound over the top but in my experience, I had my 45 footer lifted out here a couple of months ago for some cleaning and tidy up and on the 250 tonne lift and it was the first time, and I’ve used three different lifts on the Gold Coast in the last 15 months for weighing and anti-foul and various things. It’s the first time I didn’t have issues with the forestay either hitting the front of the lift, or the backstay, which has got my HF aerial attached to it for my HF radio.

Been hard up against the back of the lift, it had actually been bent, which I had the unfortunate experience just before Christmas when I got it weighed for an IRC rating. So the great thing about the big lift here is if you’re a yachtie you’ve got no issues with forestays and backstays because 250 tonnes over sized for your typical 10 tonne yacht but you actually need that extra space to not have those damage issues with your forestay and your backstay, which is something I found.

Kym Fleet: That’s totally correct and what people, customers need to know is you don’t pay any more because it’s a 250 tonne traveller. If what you’re paying for, all the marinas certainly on the East Coast of Australia charge out by length. Once you get over a hundred tonne, there is a weight charge there as well and that adds up to a figure but when you’re talking anything from a 30 foot yacht to a 60 foot yacht, you’re paying by a foot length. 

So whether or not we use the 50 tonne travel lift or the 250 tonne travel lift. The cost doesn’t change but the level of ease changes and the stress value changes because our big machine with the 10 meter beam with the capability of 140, 150 feet, a 45 foot yacht fits in there very nicely and there’s no stress involved.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, I mean it would be fair to say you don’t worry about the capability of the machine. It actually looks like it’s lifting a toy boat when you look at the scale of the machine against the boat. I mean it’s big enough to lift a 737 aircraft I think. I think they’re about 200 tons.

Kym Fleet: Yeah that’s correct. The other side of it is too, when you're operating a machine like that, we use 20 tonne slings. So a boat like yours David, a 45 foot Beneteau, we can pick that up with two slings quite comfortably. The slings are a foot wide, we lift them on the manufacturer’s recommended spots on the boat so there’s no issues of no stress on the boat. There’s no damage that can occur to the boat itself because they’re sitting in something soft. The boats weight are just absorbed in the slings. 

Once we get you down on the hardstand we’ve also got a keel pit here you know so we can pop your boat down into a keel pit. That pits three meters deep, so at the end of the day when the boat’s sitting on virtually on ground level, we come back and give it a little wash where the slings have been but the rest of the boat’s been cleaned off with the high pressure cleaner and there’s no damage at all.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, and I did notice your guys are pedantic about where the lifting spots are and for those that don’t know and especially if you’ve got an older boat, there’s these manufacturers marks on the side of the hull, in the front and the back, you need to lift your boat and I’ve had the boat lifted up before where no one’s paid any attention and in fact I’ve had to actually ask them to move the slings more than a foot sometimes, to put them in the right spot and then I think if I wasn’t there as the owner, well what sort of stress is it putting on the hull? So having people that are pedantic about that is quite important because if you have a structural hellfire in the middle of the ocean at night one day just because somebody’s lifted your boat in the wrong place and stressed it all, you can pay the price.

Kym Fleet: Yeah, that’s correct and another thing we do here at the Gold Coast City Marina is we have photo records of virtually every boat that we bring out. Bringing 15 to 1,700 boats out a year, that’s a lot of lifting but also it gives us a good database, or good knowledge base for what boats look like underneath. Obviously every boat is not the same. Most 45 foot Beneteau’s are the same so we’ve got a record of that on file. If it’s 140 foot super yacht and we don’t know what it looks like underneath, we’ll just get a diver in. 

We can pay $300 for a diver for an hour’s work, but it’s just an insurance policy. So they can get underneath the boat, understand where all the skin fittings are, all the water intakes are, where the shafts start and stop, where the rudders are. So before we even start to take any weight, we’re totally convinced that we’ve got it under control. When we do lift it to water level, we can then get a visual underneath it and just make sure we’ve got it all covered. We lift boats, the boat needs to be balanced correctly in the machine as well, and you don’t just lift them and hope for the best so that’s part of the process. 

If we’re lifting a boat we aren’t aware of or boat we haven’t seen before, we will allow all day to get it up, get it out of the water and set it on the hard stand, we won’t have another two booked in behind it and put the pressure on ourselves to make sure that we keep moving, we’ll just allow the time to make sure we’ve got it right.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Wow, you almost need a clear river so you can have underwater cameras.

Kym Fleet: That would be nice and no sharks.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Exactly. So what are some of the stranger’s sites or challenges you’ve had to deal with here with lifting vessels out of the water?

Kym Fleet: We’ve had a couple here, some of the bigger boats. We’re reliant on the skippers of the bigger boats because generally they’re not driven by an owner, they’re driven by a skipper. So if we start a conversation with somebody about hauling their boat out of the water we need some specifications on the boat, some drawings, and some lifting files. Sometimes we don’t always get told the truth and that sometimes makes it difficult. 

In my time here, we’ve only ever walked away from two lifts. They were quite heavy boats but they were quite short boats also, which has its own set of complications. The other side of that, we’ve lifted boats out of the water here and they’ve never gone back in the water. They end up getting cut up and thrown in a bin, which is sad, but we’re trying to avoid those as much as possible. They’re usually houseboats.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah right. You see a few of those sunken around the place?

Kym Fleet: Yeah, we will refuse to lift something if it just doesn’t look right, if the insurances aren’t in place. What happens with us is we try and help everybody as we do, that’s part of our role. We don’t sell an angle, what we do is provide a service so you want to do the best for everybody, sometimes you can’t help people and you wish you didn’t sometimes.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well I guess there’s some boats where the conditions are that bad, that it might actually fall apart if you lift them.

Kym Fleet: That’s the danger is then we become responsible for it, but 95% of the people that are boating up and down the East Coast of Australia are sensible people. As I said, we don’t physically sell anything. We sell a little bit of diesel, we sell some ice creams and we sell some ice but apart from that, this whole facility is based on providing people with a service and we need to be good at it at the end of the day, we need to do it safely. So sometimes we will back out of it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so looking to the future, I mean, the facility here is I guess 15 years old, something like that? So what do you see the next 10 years holding for the future of the marina and how it unfolds and goes forth from here?

Kym Fleet: We’re very fortunate because the people that initially designed the place were industry people, they knew what they wanted to achieve out of. We’ve still got one of the original partners. He’s here, he owns the place, him and his son Trenton and Patrick they own the place right.

What we want to do going forward is we want to maximise the capabilities of the facility, the mentality’s change, as I said, over the last three years. So currently we’re at a 100% tenancy as far as the ability to take any other businesses on board to utilise facility, we’re maxed out there at the moment, we’re in a bit of a scramble to get some more space. Having said that, we know we need to change with the times. Our super yacht ships, we got eight super yacht ships here, which are 150 feet long. 

They’re constantly booked out, they’ve been booked out for the last two years. So part of the process going forward is to add on to that to give us a little bit more facility out on the hardstand, a bit more covered area where we can do specific jobs on the hardstand and protect all the boats around us. The other thing we’re looking at doing now is adding a couple more super yacht arms in the main river. So the idea of that is a super yacht can come in, get works done without having to lift it out of the water or anybody can utilise the facility but also so you can drive vehicles down to the wharf, be right next to the boat so you can replenish the vessel without having to walk 50 feet every time you come out a box down there. It gives the tenants here or the industry here the ability to come drive a vehicle right down to the boat. 

Other things we’re doing, we’re heavily involved with the Gold Coast Expo here, which is one of the boat shows on the calendar in Southeast Queensland, and we want to expand on that. We’re just here to help the industry as much as anything. I’ve described it before as an airport. It is an airport. We provide all the infrastructure for the industry to do what they need to do and we listen strongly to what the industry suggestions are and where the industry is going so we’ll just adapt to suit their needs.

If it means more infrastructure or bigger machines, we’ve replaced our travel lift 12 months ago with a bigger machine because there was a need to be able to lift heavier boats. If we can get to the point where the river is dredged, quarter clearance on the gold coast, it’s really important to us at the moment, we’re championing the government to allow us to have a port of clearance either here in this facility or at Southport Yacht Club.

If we can do that and provide people with the ability to come straight out of the pacific, clear customs come and see us, get the work done, do what they need, they can dry store their boat. If they want to fly home for Christmas, we can dry store their boat here, look after it four to six months, we do a special rate for long term hardstand. It’s about what the industry and what our customs are telling us we need to do. We’ll do our very, very best to fill in the gaps.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s great if you can get a port of clearance down here, that’d be fantastic. I mean right now, having to sail into Brisbane, up the river to the body gateway to get cleared in and then come back down to the Gold Coast is you’re coming in from overseas. Its eight hours are easily to the trip and you felt more. And I know personally from that, it’s a pain in the ass if you didn’t have to do it, you wouldn’t.

Be able to come here is a cruising sailor, clearing here, enjoy the gold coast and get all your work done here without that extra detour in and out, that will be a great plus for you.

Kym Fleet: Yeah well it’s proceeding actually quite well. This is first came about, we do a bit of sailing of the marina in and about the pacific. We go to Fort Lauderdale every year, we go to Singapore, we do a Tahiti rendezvous, and one of the things we learn from going to Tahiti was apart from the fact that there’s 200 puddle jumpers in the middle of the pacific right now coming out of the west coast of America, out of California.

What we learned is we’re losing business to Brisbane and although it’s a reasonable sort of a facility, the Brisbane River is not wonderful. The marinas up there are underneath the airport, the international airport in Brisbane. So constantly we get the fall out, out of that. At the end of the day, it’s not so much about the Gold Coast City Marina, it’s more about what the Gold Coast has to offer as a region and that’s fine dining, it’s the best golf courses on the planet. It’s the best beaches on the planet. 

You got the green behind the gold, which is the hinterland up in the hills there, which is just absolutely stunning. So there’s much more to the Gold Coast than just us, the Gold Coast City Marina in the precinct, it’s more about what the whole region has to offer and it’s part of our sell going forward is to make sure that people out in the pacific up in Asia and then the Americas know about that and that’s part of our process going forward is to keep selling that.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You can drop your boat off here and be at the theme park in five minutes.

Kym Fleet: That’s correct and another thing that we do here is we’ve got a customer courtesy vehicle, we’ve got access to both the airports reasonably easily, we got a train station five minutes down the road. Part of the process of what we provide to anybody, being it an internal tenant and one of their customers or somebody sailing in and out of the pacific, is we will store their boat for them, long term over the summer if they want to go back to America or Asia or the UK, wherever it is, we will happily look after their boat for them. 

Its 24 hours a day, seven days a week security. We’ll happily store their boat, plug it in, get them back to the airport, we’ll happily drive them to Brisbane Airport or to Coolangatta Airport or pop them on a train within reason, whatever they need to do, we’ll accommodate that. That’s a free service, that’s part of what we do.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, and it’s a pretty good location. Over the summer we’re pretty much south of where the cyclones hit generally. You don’t have some of those risks you’ve got if you go a whole lot further north and leave your boat there over summer.

Kym Fleet: We’ve got some people arriving in the next two weeks, they’re sailing over from New Zealand, and the idea is we park their boat on the hardstand for three months, we plug it in, we monitor the boat for them, they’re jumping in a high car and they’re touring Australia. So they’ve never been here before so they’re enjoying a sailing, but once a year parked up, they know that their boat’s safe and they go off and do their land based stuff. Come back, jump in the boat and go and do the Whitsundays. So it’s a perfect scenario.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s a good idea, why would you leave it in the water if you can take it out of the water for a similar cost, given the risks that are attached with this.

Kym Fleet: Once we do our long term hardstand thing, that’s actually cheaper to be out of the water on the hardstand and then your maintenance is down then as well and we can keep a good eye on it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You’ve got no risk of anyone running into your boat, no risk of your skin the fittings or pipes rupturing, your boat’s sinking while you’re away.

Kym Fleet: And as you say, we’re below the cyclone belt, we can occasionally see the effects of cyclones, we have a contingency in place if we’ve got a big blow coming down the coast, we’ll have to strap the boat down to the concrete so it’s more than safe. We’re boat people so we understand the ups and downs of having boats on hardstands and it’s again, just a part of the service we provide, we want to make sure that you can drive or sail away from here knowing that we’ve done a good job and that’s the plan.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, have you seen that marina in Fiji on the west coast where they’ve dug all the holes in the ground and then we stayed there last year and it’s a circular marina, it’s like a basin and there’s about 40 boats that holds and when you walk around there, there’s all these holes in the ground in tires and I asked, “What are these for?” They say, “Well if people leave their boats here over cyclone season, we lift the boat out, we lower it, the keel into the ground of course, the hull sits on the tires and then we just strap it down. 

So if the cyclone comes through theatrically, the damage to your boat is going to be debris flying through the air but it’s not going to tip the boat over but it’s quiet, like there’s probably 30 or 40 holes in the ground that had been dug out. I thought it’s just so you can work away at your boat at ground level. The cyclone’s better. Fortunately we have to think about things like that here.

Kym Fleet: What we’ve got is we’ve got a lot of meter square concrete blocks, which basically spoils from left over concrete when they come back from doing a job and the council requires that they have a process for getting rid of the left over concrete. So we happily take it on board. What we do particularly with the catamarans in summer, because the catamaran is so light and there’s so much windage to it once it’s out of the water it will just literally ratchet, strap them down to concrete blocks so it just give them that bit of extra protection. Those blocks are well over a tonne. We’ll put two or four down as necessary and that works really well, we’ve never had any issues, touch wood, but that’s part of the plan.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s great. Thanks Kym, thanks for sharing all of your experience and thoughts there in such a great description of the facility here and what it has to offer.

Super yacht sheds make it easier to do work in all weather

Kym Fleet: No, my pleasure mate. As I said, it’s is a service industry, we need to know, we need to let people know what we’re capable of and what we’re trying to achieve and at the end of the day, as I said, we want people flight back out of here and believe that they’ve got a good job for a reasonable price and that’s the process.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, well that’s great. Well what we’ll do now is we’ll switch over to David, your partner in crime from Bradford Marine and for most of us, we’re lifting boats out with a purpose in mind and usually it’s to get antifouling done and occasionally it’s to get more than that done and maybe a full repaint.

In terms of a bit of a background, when I bought my boat five years ago and I discovered this whole antifouling thing, because I’ve come from being a dinghy sailor. I kind of saw it as a necessary evil. So I sort of pulled my boat out every 18 months to try and stretch it out. I did it myself and I did that the first two or three times and I started getting a few issues where the keel paint started bubbling because I had a diver who would give it a clean every month because it was a starting to race and had issues with the keel paint starting to bubble off.

So I thought, “Maybe this isn’t so good and I should get a professional to look at it,” which I did a year ago and after talking to another fellow sailor who had his boat sand blasted right back to glass and steel which is something I hadn’t heard of. I was then advised that I should probably do that as well. So it was interesting about the process but the boat was sand blasted, right back to bare glass and as part of that in the preparation for painting process, they’d discovered eight osmosis spots and two were actually quite serious and required quite a bit of work to repair them but ultimately, the process from there was my hull was completely re-primed, my keel which was steel and pitted was re-primed and filled and feared back to basically a brand new finish and then I applied three coats of really hard international antifouling paint.

I’m not sure exactly what the technical description is. I’m sure you’ll know that. Then boarded it up smooth and then did an 800 grade wet and dry sand paper. So it’s changed my whole view of painting and antifouling. I guess the end result now is I’ve got a 23 year old hull with a new lease of life, it’s made a massive difference in terms of boat speed, particularly in light winds. Substantially in terms of bench marking against other boats. 

Now, my view now is I believe I have the best products and the professional finish because it’s the one thing that keeps the sea water out of your hull basically and the risk you’ve got is that the whole integrity of your hull is compromised if you don’t get the paint part right, particularly the part that sits in the water. So I’ve done a lot as a result. So David, you’ve got a lot of expertise in theory, so we thank you for joining us today to share a bit of that expertise with us, and with our listeners. 

How would you describe I guess from where you sit, the antifouling choices and levels of quality that are available? Somebody’s bought say a 10 year old boat and they’re looking to get their anti-fouling done for the first time and they’re not sure what the history of that boat’s been. How would you describe the choices and decisions they need to make as part of the process?

David Hanton: Yeah, good morning David, thanks for having us. Well, when you sort of looking at that boat and you want to make a decision on what anti-foul, there’s quite a range of products available on the market. Ideally, it’s always good to know what paint is currently on the boat. If you’re not aware of that then we can sort of do a little bit of a test once it comes out, whether there’s a selection of anti-foul such as ablative hards, especially for you racing guys, you sort of tend to go for the VC offshore.

The vessel Alaska Pelula after sand blasting at Bradford Marine

Much like the big boats that do the Sydney to Hobart, they’re generally running on Durepox, which is a very sort of hard two pack and they get a lot of speed out of that. There’s a selection, really depends on what sort of boating you’re doing but in regards to what you’re saying with the 10 year anti-foul, it does have a life expectancy. You can’t just keep putting anti-foul on a boat time after time. It all start to crack off and basically fall off because it’s like putting on house paint, wall paper, there’s only so many layers that will fit on there.

So what you’ve done, I believe you’ve gone and done the process, you’ve sand blasted it off and basically when we do that, it’s all about specifications from the paint manufacturer and how it’s applied. We do it by Micron after that’s looked at. So yeah, important decision is what sort of boating you’re doing really is what sort of paint is going to fit the boat.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and if I’m a cruising sailor, I’m spending a lot of time in warmer waters, do I have different decisions to if I’m spending time in cooler waters?

Sand blasting a hull back to bare gel coat

David Hanton: Yes, if you do, there’s several products that suit warmer waters and, but if you’re racing also, if your boat’s not staying in the water, if you’re pulling it out after races then you’re probably better off not having an anti-foul on the boat at all. Just staying with the Durepox or something but VC offshore is a good option for that or Micron 66 with international.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. So if you’re racing and you’re using a harder anti-foul paint, then what’s the trade off there in terms of maintenance of that with keeping your hull clean?

David Hanton: Hard anti-foul gives you the option to give it a good scrub more so rather than an ablative. When you go down and dive on ablative anti-foul, you’re tending to take a bit off each time you go. Whereas a harder anti-foul is actually giving good adhesion to the boat, you can go down and give it a good scrub and you’re not taking so much off. 

In terms of getting any speed out of any different anti-foul there’s really no difference. As long as you haven’t got a build up of anti-foul there, you’ll be surprised if you’ve got 10 or 12 years of anti-foul on there, you’re probably losing probably up to three to five knots.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, right. Okay. With the harder anti-fouls, so they foul up faster than the softer anti-fouls? Is that part of the trade off?

David Hanton: Not generally, once again it will come down to your boating if you're leaving your boat in the marina and it’s not getting used, anti-foul loves to be working in the water, hard or soft, it doesn’t really matter. But maintenance wise, you tend to get a bit more time out of a harder anti-foul than you would an ablative if you're not using your boat as much. But if you’ve got an ablative on there and you’re using your boat a lot then you’re going to get 18 months, two years possibly.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, I’ve certainly found that when I had the old, well the original anti-foul would have been the softer anti-foul, I could when a diver gave it a clean, I could see all the blue in the water as it was coming off. Then when I lifted my boat out for re-antifouling, I had all these white patches where the anti-foul is gone.

So the more that the diver cleaned it once a month, the more it wore off. Whereas the hard anti-foul, I pulled it out just last month here at the Gold Coast City Marina after 12 months. Fully covered still and it’s been cleaned every month by a diver and none of it’s come off or didn’t look like it had. So substantial difference if you’re getting it cleaned every now and then. In warmer waters you generally are going to have to get your boat cleaned by, whether your snorkel or you do it yourself or you get a diver because it’s just the nature of the beast. 

Especially if you’re on river outflows like we are on the Gold Coast, we’ve got all sorts of stuff coming down the river that fouls up and helps accelerate the fouling of the boat. Okay, can you describe I guess, if someone’s got an older hull and they’re thinking of stripping it right back, you said the sand blasting process, can you describe, how does that work? What are the steps, what are the stages, what would make you want to do that?

Treating osmosis after sand blasting the hull back to bare gel coat

David Hanton: The process, generally we’ll find that out on your maintenance schedule when you do pull it out. Quite often, you’re sort of not expecting that, you’re coming out at the marina here and you’re sort of looking at it going, “Oh, I might get some opinions about what’s going on here.” From our point of view, we’re happy to come down and meet any client and give them some advice in regards to that. The situation is basically you’re getting de-lamination on your hull and that could be caused through water egressing from inside or outside your hull.

In other words, you can have osmosis internally which is penetrating out. The situation there is we would recommend that it is sand blasted. If it’s a situation where the boat is completely riddled with osmosis then you’re going to need to look seriously at having the boat planed. Basically that’s taking two to four mil off the hull and getting rid of all that osmosis. Any further osmosis after it’s been planned would have to be ground out and then we’d re-glass and re-laminate the hull.

Very expensive process so important thing is when you are looking at buying a boat, that that’s one of the things that you seriously look at. The process once we’ve pulled it out, we’ve sand blasted it, we give the hull a sand and we put coats of epoxy on there, two to three coats of epoxy and we’ll also put a barrier coat and then followed by two coats of anti-foul. Once again, that’s all done by specifications and by Micron, so you’re getting the right amount of paint on the boat.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So you’re putting quite a few layers back on there.

David Hanton: Definitely, when you’ve gone back to your gel coat, you’re getting a few layers on there because you’re going to get another 10 to 15 years out of that process.

Propspeed is a great solution for keep growth off props

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, I found that’s very substantial, but it just almost restarts the life of your hull. I had some quite serious stuff ground out that was bigger than an orange in terms of the width and quite a few mil deep.

David Hanton: That’s not uncommon in probably your age boat at the end of the day. People need to understand that it’s not going to last forever and maintenance is very important so it’s really important to get your boat out, sort of 15 to 18 months if you’ve got that type of anti-foul.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, and at the time, the advice I was given was spending whatever it was, five or $6,000. It wasn’t all that, because I had to lift the mast out. So part of the cost of the sand blast was taking the mast out so you could go into the shed. So maybe it’s only $4,000 for the sand blast but you could end up with tens of thousands of dollars of damage to your hull if you just leave it to the grade, wouldn’t you say? When that osmosis gets really serious, you can end up with a serious situation and insurance doesn’t cover that does it? It just is poor maintenance.

David Hanton: No, we’ve had people try and give insurance for osmosis but no, you're right. And as I said, that’s something that you’re spot on your maintenance, regular pull outs generally and if you keep an eye on it and if you have got osmosis and you keep it under control then that doesn’t become an expensive issue at the end of the day.

You can pull out, you might have 15, 20 osmosis's, get them done, get them sorted because the problem is when the boat comes out, you may see some osmosis but there’s a lot of them that won’t come out at that pull out that are still there. So they might not rear their ugly head until the following haul out.

One of the many stages of layering the new epoxy, primer and anti-foul onto the fresh hull

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, right.

David Hanton: So we can’t see them all at the end of the day. Osmosis is mostly noticed when the hull has just been water blasted by the marina, the hull’s wet and you’ll see that slight blister just pop out.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: There’s bubbles sticking out there.

David Hanton: Once you give it a little pop, you’ll smell a nice vinegar smell and you’ll know that you’ve got some osmosis. There are some blisters that come up on boats that are basically just bolt blisters so not so much to worry about there but it’s the ones that smell like vinegar that are the ones that you’ve got an issue with.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So for the lay person, what actually causes osmosis and what’s the best thing you can do to prevent it as opposed to have to having to go and repair it?

David Hanton: Prevention is basically maintenance just ensuring that you’ve got no water egressing into any parts of your hull. So if you’ve hit a sand bank or you’ve hit something ensuring that there’s no de-lamination that has occurred because water will egress into that de-lamination and then sneak through the hull and start to have that osmosis area.

Also internally, if you’ve got water lying in your boat anywhere, that’s going to seep through, especially even rain water that comes in, that will leak into the hull as well so really important to keep water out.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So you can start osmosis form the inside out as well?

David Hanton: For sure yep. Or de-lam inside the boat and it will sneak through and start to pop out the others side. So that goes both ways.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So if you’ve got a part of your hull where the paint’s worn away, the water can start to penetrate there?

David Hanton: Correct.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And then it gets in between the outside layer or the inside layer and starts to work its way like a cancer that’s through your hull.

David Hanton: Just like house rot or anything else, you know? In steel boats and basically that osmosis is basically rust and then aluminium obviously doesn’t rust but it pits and corrodes quite badly. But out of that, I’ve mentioned before that three boats, the aluminium, fibre glass and your steel probably and the fibre glass is the least maintenance. If you are looking to buy a boat, probably buy fibreglass.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I was going to ask you about that because if you’re considering alloy, wood, steel or fibre glass, so fibre glass would be your pick?

David Hanton: Definitely fibreglass, if you want to keep the maintenance low. I mean steel boats have been around for a long time, they’re use commercially and so forth but they generally have a good maintenance program and unless you’re prepared to go down that road of keeping it well maintained, I wouldn’t buy a steel boat. Timber boat’s very much the same, beautiful boats, been around for a long time of course but you do get wood rot and can be very expensive whereas the fibre glass is pretty much easier, it can ground out, re-glassed and…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Looks just like new, right? You can fix any part of a fibreglass boat; you wouldn’t even know that damage was there to start with.

David Hanton: And aluminium, steel I mean, if there’s bad areas they can be cut out and replaced too, but certainly a lot more expensive than fibreglass. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and what are some of the ugly things that happen that you’ve seen it happen to hulls from lack of maintenance? What are some of the really ugly things you’ve seen?

David Hanton: Yeah, we’ve seen some growth on some of the boats that come out, that people have neglected with the weeds and the barnacles and the fish and the oysters that are being lift on them. Yeah it’s just a disaster at the end of the day. I think osmosis is definitely the worst one. You just see, you pull a boat out and it’s been cleaned up water blast and it’s riddled and you just go, “Well this is a nightmare for the owner, he’s probably not even aware of it or he’s just bought the boat and hasn’t checked it out.” From the point of you boys in the sail, your keels are probably an issue with rust on the keels obviously, and your rudder stocks basically, build up of salt and around those.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay.

Kym Fleet: What is important with boating these days is the technology has changed that you get with fibre glass boats, a product that is being used on production style boats, what you serve your own. Back in the 70’s and 60’s when fibreglass was first became to being. The product wasn’t wonderful and the process wasn’t wonderful either. I’ve had quite a bit of experience in manufacturing the fibre glass boats in my time. It’s about the process that’s carried out on the products that are being used in the start and these days, certainly anything from the late 90’s through 2000’s into where we are today.

The processes have become much better and also the product has become much better. So osmosis in later model boats is a little unusual, certainly more unusual than what it would have been in a boat and it was produced in the 70’s and 80s, that’s just principally because of the process controls. That can include the humidity on the day, the amount of weather on the day, how dry it is that all has a factor. The person physically doing the job and the materials that they’re using. 

Fortunately, these days most production boats like Sea Rays and Maritimo’s, Riviera’s, Beneteau’s, Jeanneau’s, any of those sort of things, the process that are in place and the product is not much better. So it seems to be something that’s slowly but surely going out, you’ll always get it in old boats, fortunately the new boats are much better.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right. So on that advice then, if you’re buying a boat that’s pre 2000, you want to establish who the manufacturer was because it was a home job or some small time by a producer but you want to do your checks and balances in terms of surveys and pulling the boat out of the water before you write a check out.

Kym Fleet: The best money you’re ever going to spend on your buying a new boat or a second hand boat is to have a marine surveyor inspect the boat out of the water, that usually incorporates a wet blast or a water blast underneath the boat, a lot of those seven - 800 boats we’ve pulled out last year, percentage of those are just out for a physical check.

The amount of boat change that changes hands, particularly here on the Gold Cost, it’s a big boating community so there’s lots of boat trials going on. So that’s the best money you can ever spend is get yourself a marine surveyor to take a look at the bottom of the boat after it’s been blasted and get a mechanic in to check the mechanicals because they are two much important and most expensive things you’re going to find.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, great, that’s good advice. So just to David, along the lines of we talk about hulls and stuff but what are some of the other warning signs you need to look out for around rudders and keels that are taken for granted? I mean sometimes some of these boats just have keels snap off and boats tip upside down, they sink. So clearly something leads to that occurring. Are there warning signs that you can see in the keel or the rudder, when you pull the boat out of the water?

David Hanton: Once again, depending what your keel’s made of, if it is a steel obviously rust is the major issue there and once again, that’s just water egress, getting under areas that are not protected or coated properly. With your rudders, there’s obviously leaks that could penetrate through the big washers or the bearings that you have basically. Is that the right word? Washers and bearings?

That you’ll get through there, which causes loosening up of your rudder. So a lot of these things are basically are sorted on your haul out, ensuring that you’ve done your checks and balances once, once the boat’s out. Obviously hitting sand banks and that sort of thing doesn’t help rudders and it’s important that you pull your boat out once you’ve noticed you’ve done that because you don’t know what sort of damage is occurring down there.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Most of us racing sailors seem to focus on hitting it with our keels. So we should be okay.

David Hanton: Yeah, keels are fairly solid aren’t they? But once again, if you’ve noticed you have done it, just be mindful when you haul out next time, make sure that you check it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: In case you’ve fractured bolts or opened up gap between the keel and the hull.

David Hanton: And just adding to Kym about, with that surveyor sort of scenario, definitely if you are looking to pull the boat out, just ensure that even if you can get it to stay out overnight because when the boat dries out and it’s a good opportunity to check for cracks and get a moisture check on the hull. A lot of boats will have moisture in their hull regardless of their age, it’s just a fact of boating.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Fact of sitting in the water 24/7. Okay. Lastly David, what tips can you give in terms of maximising the life and the integrity of your hull and your cabin top, and what sort of maintenance cycle is optimum?

David Hanton: Depending on your boating and how often you’re boating, but maintenance side of it, do anti-fouls vary? There’s some, the start off anti-foul will last you 12 months if you get immediate mid-range anti-foul you can get 15 months and there are some anti-fouls that will be four years. 

Be careful of the ones that do say four years because it’s basically a situation where that boat needs to be under constant voyage and if you’re not, it doesn’t meet the warranty side of it. So very important. We’re about to launch a product called Sea Hawk, which is going to give a 12 month warranty on the anti-foul and it’s not just a product replacement warranty, it’s actually a full warranty where they’ll pay for your haul out, your marina fees, and the replacement of the anti-foul.

It’s a top line product and it’s about to be launched shortly and we’re looking forward to do that. That’s an important fact, topside, ensuring that you’re giving your hull and good wax every six months really important. Keeping all those environmental issues away such as moisture and rain, checking all your fittings ensuring that they’re all tied and there’s no water. Rain water is probably is just as bad as sea water at the end of the day if it’s getting in somewhere then you’re going to cause problems.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Great, and any other thoughts or any other advice before we wrap up?

David Hanton: Nothing at the moment, no. Not that I can think of but yeah, we’re here to help. We work with the marina and we’re looking forward to the next few years in developments here in the precinct and especially if we’re looking to get the clearance and working with all the other marinas around the area to build a good boating community really.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s great. Well, I personally now use Gold Coast City Marina and Bradford Marine to take care of all my hull maintenance and hull integrity and go fast needs. I thought, it’s great to share the technical knowledge that these guys have from their experience and what we’ll do is we’ll gather a whole bunch of photos from David and Kym of the facility here and of some of the various stages of degradation and painting and upgrading and optimising hulls and I’ll share those in the show notes online. 

So where we’ll publish the show notes for this episode, check those out, they’ll be there as well and they’ll give you a really good guide as to the best and worst of what you can see and also some details of the facility here as well. So thanks guys for joining me this week, thanks for putting aside and hour of your time. I know you’ve got busy businesses to run. I really appreciate you sharing all your knowledge and technical tips.

Kym Fleet: No problem.

David Hanton: Thanks David.

Interviewer: David Hows

Episode 13: Chuck O'Malley Show Notes

Andy Schell: Chuck O’Malley is with Chesapeake Sailmakers here in Annapolis. I’ve known Chuck for the last 10 years and he’s worked on my sails, my dad’s boat and some other stuff I’ve done. Just recently, Chuck built a brand new mainsail for our Swan 48 Isbjörn and it was amazing. We blew up our old mainsail and it got done in two weeks, we picked it up in Saint Martin and it is just fantastic and he’s going to talk a little bit about specifically the sail we got made and why we got it made with certain features specific to blue water sailing.

I’ll let him explain that but we do a bunch of events over at Chesapeake Sailmakers as well, if you do in Delmarva, the Delmarva seminar is going to be over at the loft as will some of the parties and stuff we have around that. So they do a lot of stuff over at the loft year round and Chuck is a great guy to work with and really knows his stuff. So I’ll leave it to him to talk about off shore sails and sail making, thank you Chuck.

Chuck O'Malley: Thanks Andy. Welcome everybody, I appreciate you having me here, we’re going to cover a lot of ground in a very short period today. So it’s going to be an overview, I’ll be here after the break, I’ll stay for lunch, I’ve got samples to show people for different cloths. But we’re going to try and really address offshore sails and what you need to think about, what you need to start preparing for and how using sails offshore is very different from maybe how you’ve been using them currently. 

With that, offshore sailing, what does it mean to me as a sail maker? As I mentioned, it’s a very different approach and basically, when you’re on the bay, you’re using your sails but you get to pick and choose when you go out, you get to pick and choose the conditions you sail in, it’s very different. When you go off shore, your bringing all these in here. Your choices or things are dictated to you more. You’re making a long passage, all of a sudden your sails shift from being used in good conditions or fair conditions to now you’re going to have periods of extended times in UV extended wear and tear.

You don’t get to choose what sea state or what wave, or what wind conditions you sail in. The sails get a lot more demands on them a lot of wear and tear, a lot of weathering, a lot more chafe, even just the acts of putting a reef in has a lot of wear and tear, takes a lot of life out of sails. So all these things factor into, as a sail maker, things that I consider when I build an offshore sail versus when I build a sail for someone who is bay cruising or even sometimes coastal cruising. So it really makes a difference in how we approach the sail we’re going to build.

With that in mind, I’m going like try and think about, what does it take, what goes in to making a good sail? What do we have to think about? The foundation of any good sail is going to start with sail fibre, the cloth. Within the cloth and we’ll have lots of different types of cloth but the basic fibres we use, and the fibre is what’s going to dictate how strong the cloth is, we’re going to have Dacron or polyester, this has been tried and true. We’ve used it forever, there had been lots of advances and it’s been a more engineered product in the last 10, 15 years than it has been.

It’s a lot of different weights, lots of different styles, and lots of different weaves. It used to be, when Ted Hood pioneered this back in the late 50’s, it was a cross cut, XY axis type of weaving and the same fibre was on the X axis as was on the Y axis. Today, we really mix the weave construction mix. So you might have a 70/30 weave or 60/40 weave or no, still 50/50 depending upon the sail but we changed the way that the cloth is used with the Dacron polyester fibre.

Pentex is a fibre that kind of came on, it was real strong, we thought it was going to be a silver bullet for cruising sails, as it turned out, it was a fibre that had great strength in the laboratory but once you started getting flex and flogging, exposure to UV, it wasn’t as strong as what we initially thought. It’s basically polyester or Dacron, on steroids. So it ended up not being that silver bullet we were looking for.

Aramid fibres are fibres we see more commonly in race board application but one of the fibres that’s really nice is you get into bigger boat for cruising, it’s Vectran. It’s got great flex qualities, very low stretch, very poor UV. So what we do with the Vectran fibre is we coat it with titanium oxide, which adds a little bit of weight to it but it makes it more, not impervious, but makes it in a much better fibre for UV. This is something more for bigger boats.

Carbon, again, that’s been a big buzz in the racing community, it’s filtering down into the cruising community. The nice thing is it’s impervious to UV, it’s got very high strength to weight, it’s not super heavy. One of the drawbacks for a lot of cruisers is it’s black so they don’t really like having black or greyish looking sails. The other big thing is it’s got poor flex qualities. Carbon’s basically a fairly brittle material. So when you put it into a sail, on a mainsail, it might not be too bad other than flogging considerations but on genoa, if you have a big overlapping genoa, every time you tack, you’re going to be taking some life out of the carbon sails.

So you have to think about how we do that and as a result, as sail makers, what we’ve started doing is, we started with a carbon that was a very strong low stretch carbon and now we’ve dialled back the initial modules to create a carbon that stretches a little bit more than what the perfect race environment is, but the more we dial back the initial modules, the stretching, the more we get to a better flex quality. So it’s trying to find that happy median between the two properties.

The last one we see is Spectra or a lot of times we hear it called Dyneema. Dyneema is a great product for flex, it’s a lightweight fibre, it’s got great ultimate strength, it’s got a little bit of creep to it but for cruising application, I don’t really find that to be an issue. The only other problem we see with Spectra is that it’s got a little bit of an oily finish to it, the fibre itself is as very slippery fibre. As a result, a lot of times in laminating, it’s not a great fibre for lamination. So it’s very hard when we do these cruise laminates or oriented fibres to get a good sandwich with that fibre. It tends not to stick as well as some of the other fibres out there. 

So we’ve got the predominant fibres that we’re going to deal with and now the next thing we’ll look at is what types of sail cloth? Think about, we’ve got Dacron, aramids, Pentex, Spectra, all these fibres go in to making up a sail cloth. So we start with the most basic and that’s woven. Woven is, every white Dacron sail you see is basically a woven product. That means it’s just like we make clothing, it’s just on a loom, they weave material comes out on a roll and we build sails out of it.

The neat thing for sail making, and Andy just talked about his boat, the woven material for yours were just a standard Dacron. Now, we’re seeing a big push in the engineering of woven materials to create hybrid wovens. So Dacron’s with Spectra’s blended into them or we’re creating wovens where we have a very engineered approach to the way the X, Y axis of the weave is so we can create a really strong, tri-radial type or what we call a warp-oriented fibre.

There’s been a lot of research and development in the woven cloths because we’re finding the durability of woven, the lack of mildew concerns. All these things as we travel through technology, we’re coming back quite often to what was original and now we’re just trying to improve the original technology. 

Laminated sails are great for high performance. We’re still using the same, whether it’s polyester, whether it’s Spectra, whether it’s Pentex, whether it’s Vectran, the structural fibre is still the same in a cruise laminate as it is in a woven sail but the application, the way we build it is different. The pictures probably don’t show up real well but in a laminated sail, you might have what feels like one layer of cloth but it’s actually five different pieces all glued together and put under pressure to create a one unit.

So you’ll have in the centre a structural grid of the fibre and then two layers of Mylar and then two layers of a very light weight Dacron, those all get sandwiched together to create a one layer of material and what happens is, we call it cruise laminate because all those layers of adhesive go together. This material’s got great shape holding, it creates a little bit lighter sail but over the life, it’s going to be more prone to some delamination because all those layers over the span of use tend to break down, the lose starts to fail over time and now you get some air pockets and those air pockets lead the moisture penetration, mould and mildew concerns over the long span. Not immediately. 

These products have gotten much better, they’re putting fungicides in the adhesives and they’re treating their sales topically to help prevent moisture and penetration, it’s really come a long way. We’re seeing more of this in bigger boats; we see some of this also in genoas. 

Andy Schell: Can I just interrupt? Can you define bigger boats?

Chuck O'Malley: Okay, so a bigger boat, that’s a great question. For instance, on a 40 foot boat, I might think about a cruise laminate for my genoa because I don’t have and we’re jumping ahead a little bit, but we don’t have anything supporting our genoa. The genoa is out there, we’re tacking, there are no battens, you don’t really get a lot of benefit from the mast, you don’t get benefit from the boom, you don’t have reef patching in the genoa. So you’re asking the cloth to do a lot. 

So on a 40 foot boat a cruise laminate or an oriented fibre might be an option depending upon how performance oriented you are. But a mainsail on a 40 foot boat because you have battens, you have reef patching, it’s connected to the boom, it’s connected to the mast. A standard Dacron main might be fine. And what we’re going to get to is boat size, when you start to move in to 55 feet, suddenly you’re moving into woven products. If you go with the traditional Dacron, you might need to be up into an 11 ounce cloth and the problem with those Dacron’s in the heavier weights is there’s not as much R&D being done on construction of heavier weight, pure Dacron’s. Because we find that the sails get stretchier. 

Dacron is elastic by nature so it doesn’t hold shape as well as we like it to. So most of the R&D, most of the innovation in the woven materials is moving towards what we just did on Andy’s boat and that is, it’s a Dacron Spectra blend. So it’s a woven material but it’s, on a boat Andy’s size a 48 footer, the mainsail might be 50 - 60% Spectra by weight, 40% Dacron by weight but it’s blended where it looks like it’s all one material. But it’s that blend of materials which is giving you kind of the best of both worlds. You have a woven sail, very great shape holding, longevity is incredible and you’ve got a no mould or mildew concerns, no de-lamination concerns. 

So as you move up to a bigger boat and the loads increase, that’s what starts to dictate what you have to do and you either have to remove to the hybrid type of woven or you’re moving to one of the laminated products. And that’s, I feel like at 40 feet for a genoa, 45 feet. As you get to 50, 60 feet and multihulls over 40 feet, you start to move into a higher tech material or a higher tech construction approach. Oriented fibre is something that we’re seeing on all of these race boats, if you’ve looked at all the race boats where they have strings and they go to all different directions, that’s an oriented fibre sail. 

We’re seeing this trickle into the cruising market and it’s become very popular with performance cruising boats, creates a lighter sail, very customised, very engineered, it’s a very strong sail. It has all the drawbacks of cruise laminate. You’re still laminating layers of fibre together and over time, it will break down. Probably breaks down a little bit earlier than a production built cruise laminate because this is being done in a factory with very controlled pressures, very controlled heating going into the drums that produce it. This is built more on a boat by boat basis. So there’s not quite the control, still a very high quality product, very engineered but it’s just not quite as manufactured as some of the other products out there.

Now we’ve got our fibres we’ve thought about, we’ve thought about the type of cloth, whether it’s a woven or a cruise laminate or organic fibre, now we’ll kind of looking at some of the different things here. Crosscut sails are what we see a lot where the panels run horizontally. This is tried and true construction, very easy to understand, very easy to maintain, very easy to recut, very easy to get fixed pretty much anywhere you’re going to go in the world. It’s understood pretty much by all sail makers. This is going to be limited more to, there’s one version of cruise laminate you can build with a cross cut, but predominantly Dacron sails. 

So almost all white sails will be done in a cross cut faction. Very little waste, if you look at the wastes laid out, you have very little wastes in a sail like this but the drawback is, if this sail is nine ounces, it’s nine ounces from the front to the back. So there’s very little opportunity to engineer your approach with the sail. You have to say, “If the highest loads are out here and I need 10 ounce cloth out here, I’m going to build a whole sail as a 10 ounce sail.” When in the front of the sail, we know the loads are about half of what they are here. So in the front you might not need 10 ounces but you have to build it to the worst case loading.

The next type of sail we look at is a tri-radial construction. Tri-radial construction is what we find in most cruise laminate sails. Cruise laminates are built when we build the fabric where it’s what we call warp-oriented. The load’s oriented in the long axis of the cloth when we make a roll of cloth and so you’ll end up with these sails with all these triangle panels. It creates a very high performance sail but, as you can imagine, there’s a lot more cloth waste. Each one of these panels has to be what we call nested; we have to line the load of the fibre and the cloth with the predicted load in the sail. So that process of lining those loads means all this little triangles, the off cut of the triangle can’t be used. It’s not like we take it, turn it the other way and put it someplace else on a sail.

The nesting efficiency probably ends up with close to 20% to 23% waste on a tri-radial sail. In addition to the waste, there’s a lot more labour involved with the construction of the sail. The benefit to the tri-radial, it all comes down to performance in strength. If we know, just like we talked about with the other sail, the leech of the sail has twice as much load as the front of the sail, I can come out here, put a 10 ounce material out here and in the low load areas along the luff, I can drop down and build a six ounce material. So I can really engineer the sail, that extends the life, makes the sail perform better over its life. That’s a lot of things we’re doing. 

The other neat thing about this type of construction now is a lot of the hybrid materials just like Andy’s sail we talked about. Andy’s sail’s built out of a product made by dimension-polyant. Dimension-polyant has got a factory in Connecticut; they’ve got a main factory in Germany. But that material is called HydraNet radial, it’s a Spectra Dacron blend and that sail is built as a tri-radial, it’s a Dacron woven product but it’s designed, the cloth is designed and engineered to be built as a tri-radial sail. So it gives me all the performance of a racing sail but without any of the drawbacks of delamination, mould and mildew and I can engineer that Dacron Spectra sail by going lighter in the front, heavier in the back. So it’s a really neat process. 

Then the last type we look at is what we call orient fibre. In this sail, they actually have a big gantry. A sail like this would be laid out and the machine is about as big as this room. Gantry runs all away across and in that gantry, there are 18 filament layers. At this end of the room there’d be all this bundles of carbon or Vectran or polyester or Spectra. They come up, they go down into this gantry arm and the gantry arm is computer driven and it has a load diagram on the sail. We do a load analysis, come up with a layout of where we want these yarns to pass and then that machine will just go ahead and lay yarn exactly along a load path that we’ve designed.

Really high tech, it’s really cool. A sail for a 40 footer is probably going to be strung and laid out in about six hours. The fibre is placed in a very precise method. It’s a really neat process and you can see for instance, some of the benefits to this type of layout, every time you have a reef, you can see there are different passes. So we can design arcs to go into reinforced reefing so we have a really strong reef point without adding extra weight to the sail. So the whole point of these sails is as you get to bigger and bigger boats, these sails give us the strength we need without adding a lot of weight or a lot of bulk and it lets us specific engineer. 

It’s amazing now, a lot of these mega yachts you see, most of these mega yacht sails are being built out of materials like this and instead of laminating together, you know I said you have the fibre in the centre and then two pieces of Mylar and then two pieces of Dacron, these mega yacht sails quite often will have a fibre, two layers of Mylar, another layer of fibre, another layer of Mylar. They can get up to seven or eight layers to create the strength they need. So it’s a lot of lamination to build these mega yacht sails but what they’re finding is these types of sails are really the only sails that can give you the strength you need to hold shape and, you know, now we’re seeing the Nantucket Bucket and the St. Barths Bucket, they’re starting to race these mega yachts so people can start with performance.

The drawback to these sails is they don’t last quite as long, they are completely driven by performance, weight savings and strength and shape holding at the expense of lifespan. Think about the construction, the fibre, the types of cloth. If you look at Dacron, a good Dacron sale could probably give you something in the neighbourhood of 15,000 to 20,000, 25,000 miles. They are really well constructed. If you move to a tri-radial sail out of a hybrid type material, a woven material, Andy’s sail, I would expect that sail to go 30 to 40,000 miles without a lot of concerns, it’s something now in Andy’s case, that might only be four years. It doesn’t sound like a lot of time but 10,000 miles a year is a pretty aggressive cruising schedule.

The cruise laminates, depending upon what fibre you go with, you can look at the tri-radial cruise laminate sail and be in that same general 30,000 to 40,000 mile range. The big difference is, when you get into the 25,000 mile on, you’re going to see the beginning signs of lamination break down, so there’s going to be some more air pockets and now moisture will get in and you’ll start to see mould and mildew showing up in the sail. So there are the little things in cruise laminate. Structurally, the sail’s still going to be fine, aesthetically, it’s going to look bad and then as you start to push it up towards the end of its life. You’ll see it start to break down more rapidly with the lamination. Once the delamination starts, it starts to accelerate its own process.

With the oriented fibre sails, the membrane sails as we call, that’s probably something that’s going to be more like a 20,000 mile sail, when it’s really well built and engineered. You’ve got a half-life from a really nice hybrid, woven tri-radial sail. So I like to look at the fibre, the type of cloth and the construction first because it sets the foundation. Every sail decision we make, we’re going to come back to “what cloth, that construction method?” Some of the things I like to get people thinking about this point now is what drives your decision? Everybody’s motivated by something different. Performance, if you were an ex racer and you bought a Swan or you bought a Hylas or you bought a cruising boat that’s very performance oriented cruiser, you might be more driven to go to an oriented fibre, membrane type sail or cruise laminate sail or tri-radial hybrid type sail than the guy who has an Island packet 45.

An Island Packed 45, you were looking for strong, durable, good sea boat underneath you. There are different things that drive us; those things have to go on to what drives your decision on sales. Reliability, any off shore sailor, I think the reliability’s got to be up there and that’s going to come out through your cloth choice and also through some of your construction details. Longevity, that’s a big driver, if you’re someone who says, “Hey, I want to go really fast and if I have to replace my sails every third year, I’ll replace my sails every third year, or every fourth year.”

Depending upon the type of cruising you do, if you do the World ARC, you might find it down at the World ARC, those sails are done, depending upon what they’ve been through and where they’ve gone. Affordability, budget always enters into the equation, we always have to think about what’s more expensive? Cross cut Dacron, because of the ease of construction, because of the more efficiency in the cloth layout, it’s going to be a more budget conscious sale and that might be a really good choice for main but maybe you spend a little bit more money on the genoa. So there are different things to consider.

Then, appropriate technology, I have a number of clients, they come in and they really like the membrane sails, they love the membrane sails. They have a Valiant 42 or they have a Pacific Seacraft 37 and you know, I’m glad you like the membrane sails but to be honest, they are only going to give your boat a marginal increase in performance.

The extra money you’re going to spend to get the performance that you can get out of a membrane sail, there are limitations to your boat and you didn’t buy your boat because you wanted to be the fasted guy upwind. Different things drove you to your decision of what boat you chose. It’s part of being a sail maker and part of counselling our clients is to understand what technology is the right technology for the boat in trying to help them decide on the appropriate technology. All of these things weigh in tow hat drives your decision on how to choose the proper sail. 

Now we’ll move in to working sails. I like to start with the mainsail because it’s really the most complex sail in the boat, your most decisions will be made around your main sail. On a main sail, we have to consider material selection and construction method.

That comes back to what types of cloth, what type of fibre; tri-radial or cross cut and this is going to be true for main sails, even spinnakers, those two are always the foundation of deciding on how to start our sail. Then we move into baton structure, we move into reef layouts, we move in to left track systems, sail handling systems, in boom furling, in mast furling. There are lots of different considerations with the mainsail that we’re going to start to think about. The first one I like to start with is baton structure. There’s always a question of, “Do I do full bat, do I do a mix of some full, some partial, do I do all partial, do I do no battens?”

I address a lot of the Seven Seas cruisers. A lot of the Seven Seas people like no battens, but you have to understand what the give and take is. If you have a full baton main, it’s going to help increase your performance. I can help design a better sail with a full or a full partial baton combination. It’s going to dampen the flagging better, than a sail that doesn’t have battens have partial battens. It’s going to extend the life of the sail. I equate battens to like bones in your arm. If you didn’t have any bones in your arm, this would just flap around and big piece of skin but when you put battens in, you can really create structure to your sail and help add life to it. 

Hand in hand with that, I do a lot of engineered battens, we used to do engineer battens on racing sails all the time, cruising sails would come in and we just do one flat piece of fibre glass battens stack that we’d stick in the sail and it would bend uniformly. Now, battens have gotten really engineered and a really nice approach but we can take a baton and say okay, we want the bending moment of the baton to be at 40% and we want the back end of the baton to be stiffer so it holds that wing, the designed wing that we have in the sail. 

That’s all done through baton technology now and battens have gotten lighter, they’ve got more engineered. I do that on all my cruising sails, it’s just a standard course, it’s just, “Why wouldn’t I want to help my cruising sail, last longer, look better and have a better shape just like my racing sail. The baton cost is nominal, it’s not adding, it’s not doubling the price of sails, so really, it just makes a lot of sense. Easier handling with full baton sails and you have to have some special fittings. A lot of boats with full baton sails have to go to some kind of track system to make the sail go up and down easier.

There’s longer and the baton is, the more compression has the mesh and the harder it makes it to go up and down. Partial battens, a little bit low performance, you’re going to have less roach to the sail, it might be easier for reefing because you don’t have a baton in the sails, you don’t have to worry about twisting or bending battens or breaking battens. Generally there’s less chafe and that’s one of the big reasons people go away from full battens or a mix of full and partial, to all partial and no battens, the hardware is simpler but even when I do a partial baton, I still go with the engineered battens now.

It’s amazing how many older sails we get in, that have partial battens and the battens are, it’s like a board in the sail. You see the whole nice sail shape and then you get to the baton and it’s like standing straight, the sail doesn’t take that nice curvature. You can do an engineered partial baton sail, I have it tapered, flexible tip in the front and the stiffer part in the back and create a nice sail shape.

Most of the partial baton sails we do now, way back when, 20 years ago, the battens were pretty much all being 30 inches or 33 inches. Now when we do a partial baton sail, the battens are different sizes and they’re more related, their length is related more to the girth of the sail at each point where they are. You might have a partial baton but it might be 60 inches long through the body to sail to helps support some roach. It helps the life of the sail, helps our designed wing much better.

This just shows you a little graphic of one full baton, three partials or all full baton. Just gives you something to think about. Reefing is incredibly important for offshore sails. If you’re on the bay, sailing or if you are up on the coast or coastal cruising, quite often, you can pick and choose when you go out, you say, “Hey, if it’s blowing 30 knots, we’re going to wait, this will pass, you just have the weather thing, heavy weather, shortened duration so you can pick and choose when you go.” When you do an off shore passage, you don’t have that luxury, you know at some point this sail is going to be reefed and so you have to really think about your reefing options.

There are always the two reef versus three reeves and so one of the things I like to look at is in the two reef main, a standard reef layout might be 12% and 25%. If I do an offshore main, I would do 15 and 30 with the idea of being a two reef person, it’s going to try and tri-sail. Their weather plan, their heavy weather plan is one reef, two reef, storm tri-sail. Single line reefing is really nice, you have to look at how it works, a lot of this booms have shovels in the booms now and that dictates where you can put your reef points so you might not be able to get a 30% reef, you might have to be 12 and 25 based on the way it’s setup inside the boom.

A lot of the seldom booms have that shuttle; some of the old isomets had that shuttle. That dictates your reefing, how deep we can put a reef in. We just did on Andy’s sail and I’m doing it almost all my off shore sails, in the back end, we used to always have the grommet in the sail your reef line will go through. So now I’ve started moving away from the grommet, I think I have a picture, and having a low friction ring on the back of the sail. That low friction ring looks a little bit like a grommet but it’s external to the sail so there’s less wear and tear and less chafe on the sail. The way it’s setup, it can self-align so it isn’t twisting in the back and really reduces the friction a lot and the sail strength is the highest load point of the sail, we punch a hole on it, now we don’t have to do that so we’ve really maintain sail strength a lot.

A couple of other little things, mark your halliard so it’s easier to reef especially at night, reef early, reef ahead of the need and storm tri sail with three reefs, I look at standard reef might be 12, 25 and 36. If I go off shore, 12, 30, 45. Anybody here with multi-hulls? Multi hulls, this is a really good example. A multi hull, most of the multi hulls now, a lot of them have square tops, a lot of them definitely have big roach mains. When you look at a multi-hull main versus say a main like Andy’s boat.

Andy’s boat has a pretty good sized boom but relative to the hoist of his main, it’s a high aspect ratio sail. A lot of multi-hull sails, you can have a 21 foot boom on a 42 foot multi hull with a 45 foot hoist. You’ve got a lot of areas especially that big roach. If you were to reduce your reefing in this pattern, when you put your third reef in, you still have a lot of sail area up. You have to think about this and I should back up. When I say 12, 30 or 45, what I’m referring to is the luff. If you have a 50 foot luff, 12% of that luff. If I make it easy and go with 10, you’re going to take five foot out in the first reef, if the second reef were 20, you’re taking 10%. If I go to 30, I’m taking it out the next step. So that’s what these refer to. 

On a standard triangle, if I use these numbers, I’m reducing area pretty proportionately but if you have a multi hull with the square top or with a big roach and I use these numbers, I’m not taking the area out as quickly as I need to. That’s why I start thinking about reductions of luff in this way. So I can take more sail area out at each reef. So something to think about. Mizzen are more personal. For instance, a lot of boats will sail jib and jigger. On a mizzen, I might go with one deeper reef or depending upon my discussion with a client I might do two reefs, with the second reef being there more for dropping it in and that now becomes his anchor riding sail. A lot of my clients with mizzens will drop the mizzen down to second reef and that’s his riding sail more than it is in storm conditions. But a lot of boats with mizzens you’ll go one deep reef and then sail jib and jigger and that’s how you’ll setup with a boat like that. 

Some of the little things, colour coded reef lines, really nice, reef that I need, understand reef ties, a lot of the boats reef hide in your main sail, you have those reef diamonds to tie in the sail to the boom and that’s just to gather the sail. Those aren’t design to bear load ever. They’re always set below, if you look at the plane of the sail you have your reef cringle front and back, those diamonds should always be below so they’re not gathering a load. It’s something, they’re just to hold the sail to the boom so it doesn’t go fall overboard, and collect with water. 

This just shows some of the more common reefing systems, whether you have single line, whether you have a slab reef setup, this shows that low friction ring, you see it’s webbed into the sail and it hangs off the back of the sail, a lot of little neat things have been done in reefing but for off shore sailing, it’s an important consideration to make sure you’ve got a reefing system that works. Main sail handling systems, this is another really important issue, whether you use roller slides, whether you use a strong track, a Harken style track, all of those things especially if you go to full battens, it’s going to make raising or lowering the sail much more palatable. It’s going to make reefing the sail much easier. So you need to think about that. 

As you go into a bigger boat, 40 feet and up, full battens, it’s almost mandatory to have some type of track system. Boats under 50 feet, the strong track system works really well, they’ll do a one piece track up the 60 foot in length and it’s very reliable, we’ve been using them since ’97, ’98 and we’ve had no failures with it. The Harken tracks as you get into bigger boats, become a necessity and they’re incredibly strong, well-engineered, what I like about the strong track for boats under 50 feet is there are no moving parts. So very little maintenance, very little to go wrong, it’s just a neat system. 

Other thing to look at is, you’ve got in mass furling and lots of different sail choices there. In boom furling, there are lots of different systems there. On the mainsail flaking and gathering, you’ve got as simple as lazy Jacks, Dutchman type of systems, you can move into any one of the type of cradle cover systems and then also what we’re seeing a trend towards now, used to be only in mega yachts but we’re seeing a trend towards these pocket booms even in smaller boats. I think Tartan was one of the first manufacturers introduced pocket booms and now we’re starting to see a lot of other manufacturers and spar builders offering pocket booms in boats in the 40 and 45 foot range. 

So a pocket boom, instead of the boom being just like a round tube or a rectangular tube, the pocket boom is more V shaped and the sides come up and then it rolls and then it has like a little trough on the inside. So when you drop your main, it’s getting cradled, whether it’s carbon fibre, some of them are doing it out of aluminium but it creates a trough at the main, lives in. It drops down in to. You still have the cover that goes over but it basically the main drops into a trough that holds maybe 25 to 40% of the main depending upon what it is. It’s all a handling system technique. This show for in mast furling, traditional main, no battens, if you think of the rectangle, that sail is half of a rectangle so you’ve got a sail area of 50%.

When you move to partial vertical battens, you can get up to about 53% of the rectangle, when you move to a vertical full battens, you can get up to about 54, 55% of the rectangle. A traditional cruising main, full battens is going to be about 57% of that rectangle. The whole key here is, we moved from losing a lot of this area to adding back some more. When we get here and here, the other thing we can do is we can start to add some shape to the sail, when we have an in mast furling main without any battens. It’s very hard to add shape because we don’t have anything to help support it and as we’re trying to furl around that mantle the more shape we have, the more it’s going to bunch up. Adding some battens adds a little bit of complexity to the furling operation but it does let us create a better sail design for you, to kind of get back to an aerodynamic wing. 

So in boom furling, this shows a leisure furl system but there’s pro furl, there’s boom furl, there’s chafer, there are a lot of different options and these options used to start off where they’re only available to mono hulls, we’re seeing more and more multi hulls moving to these in boom systems as well. This basically let’s me design a traditional full baton performance or mainsail and it’s going to furl around a mantle inside this boom.

I tell my clients with these systems, very reliable, very nice systems, it’s an acquired taste, you’re not going to go out in day one with it and fall in love with it but within probably two months, two months of use, you're going to find it makes life much easier for you, especially as you get to bigger boats. Reefing is very convenient; everything is generally done from the cockpit. It’s more or less necessary to have an electric winch to try and do something like this. The specific drawback is cost, for instance, if you have a boat now and you want to move to the system, an average 40 foot boat, 45 foot boat is probably going to cost you somewhere around $30 to $35,000 to go from what you have to this system. 

Because we have to design a main sail specific. The main sail design, each baton has to have a certain angle and then the construction of the sails is different from a regular construction. That’s probably the biggest difference in why you don’t see a lot of them after market and OEM manufacturers don’t like to do it because I takes training and so as a result, some of them do it but if they don’t provide the necessary training, clients tend to have problems with them and because there’s an education piece involved. So as an OEM manufacturer, they tend not to want to 0, they want to sell you the boat, get you going but don’t want to be there to train you how to use it. That’s what I see but is very reliable, it’s a product that makes a lot of sense for lots of us cruising husband and wife type of cruisers, always a reliable product.

Dutchman or cradle cover, these are lower cost options to how to handle your main sail. You started seeing these mostly on catamarans, a lot of the charter boats but it’s a nice product, it’s very reliable. When I started with Doyle, I left Quantum and I think I was going to sell many of these and I was amazed when I started building them and using them, how well they worked. Again, it’s not a silver bullet but it does a really nice job of making it easy to handle main sails on bigger boats. This shows a tart and pocket boom. You can kind of see how the boom has a V shape, the sail drops in, this is a 43 footer and we built like a little modified stack pack for this. It gives you an idea of what a pocket boom looks like. 

At this point we’ve decided battens, we decided the reef structure, we’ve looked at the cloth type, we looked at construction method that we’re going to do, we want to look at what details, what construction features should we be looking for in a good blue water sail? Luff reinforcements, batten reinforcements, belts and bridges. So they are the things that go up between the reefs, these bridges, that help stop pinging and break down, chafe protection and a lot of times your old sail will be the best indication of where the sail chafes and where it breaks down.

Your reef handling systems, we want to think about areas where there’s going to be machines sown and areas where it’s going to be hand sown. Wide seam allowances, multi-step zigzag instead of a standard zigzag, we want multiple steps, so it almost looks like a straight stitch but just in a zigzag method. Overhead leech lines so you can adjust for leech line without having to go to the back end of the boom or hang off the back of the boat.

This just shows some details, here is like an overhead leech line coming over the top of a batten pocket. Here’s the reinforcement for luff slide, so you have a lot of meat there, so you’re not going to be pulling the slides out. It’s hard to see here but this piece here over reef has a different type of material, sacrificial that’s a really great material for chafe, so you’re not chafing the sail. Batten pockets that are machines sewn and also hand sown. Headboards that are pressed on hydraulic weave with stainless steel rings and also webbed on. So just lots of little details go into making a good offshore sail. 

Now we’ll move to headsails. Headsails, for a lot of our boats, are the driving engine but it’s a much simpler process. The decisions we have to make are, they are a lot fewer decision, again, material selection, anchor structure method. We do want to cross cut Dacron sail or we do want to tri-radial hybrid woven material. Once that decision’s out of the way and that’s really a critical decision to think about what materials we’re going to use and how we’re going to build it, what method of construction. Then we think about sizing and headsail sizing, LP is what sail makers talk about all the time and we take for granted that everybody knows what it is. 

But basically, LP stands for luff perpendicular. If you go from the clew, draw the line into the head stay. Where that line creates a 90 degree intersection with the head stay, there’s a dimension and that’s what we call LP, that’s the luff perpendicular of the sail and it’s always expressed in the percent, 120, 130, 150, 110 and so if you think about simple terms from your head stay to the front of your mast, let’s say it was 10 feet. If you had a hundred percent jib, the LP of that jib would be 10 feet. If you had a 150% jib, the LP of that jib would be 15 feet. That’s all that LP stands for. 

When we think about overlap or LP or sizing, it’s important to consider, is our boat headsail driven boat? Is it a mainsail driven boat? For instance, I’ve got a lot of clients that have older bristles or little harbours, very headsail driven, smaller mains. Andy’s boat is a pretty headsail driven boat and needs a nice headsail. The mainsail does a nice job but it’s not like a J 46 that has a big mainsail and not as much headsails required or some of the newer boats like the Hanse’s where you have just a no overlapping jib and a big main. So that’s one of the considerations when we think about sizing. 

The other thing we think about is everyone has a different tolerance towards heel. So we have to think about, “Okay, if I’ve had a 130 or 140 and I use that as my primary sail, I’m going to have to reef it a lot if people on board don’t heel or I sail a lot in conditions where I always have heavy weather.” If you’re in the Caribbean, you’re always sailing in Christmas winds, that 140 might be reefed all the time. So if you’re sailing with your sail reefed more than 25% of the time, your headsail’s probably too big. You need to think about a smaller sail whether you go with a smaller sail the next time you buy one or whether you have two sails. One you use up here on the east coast in the summers, another one you’ll use down the islands in the winters. 

Performance oriented; if you’re really performance oriented, you might find that you have a need for a bigger headsail and a smaller headsail. That comes back to the numbers of headsails in the inventory. Some of my clients, especially extended cruisers, a lot of them will have something that I call a Yankee, smaller overlap, higher clew and they use that for passage making and then they have something they use when they’re back home for cruising in general where they know they’re going to have to attack more, they want to point more, there are going to be lighter winds. That’s what starts that process about thinking about what size headsail to go with. 

Shape most often is a term by the boat characteristics, every boat sails differently. A Hylas 54 versus an Island Packet 45. Very different performance characteristics to the boat and my shape considerations on how I design and build a sail. The building of the sail will be the same but the shape and the design process will be very different between those two boats.

It’s also driven by the headsail options. If I know I’m building you a 130 and you have a smaller heavy weather jib or in Andy’s case for instance, we’re looking at building a 140 and he’s thinking about doing a 100. So I might build that 140 is more of an all-purpose shape and give him a little bit more power for performance in light-medium, medium-heavy but I don’t have to make that sail take him from zero to 30. He’s got something that at a 20 knots, he can shift and go 20 or 30 with a smaller headsail. That lets me change my shaping characteristics of when I design the sail. 

Shape’s also driven by venues, if you know you're just sailing the Chesapeake or just sailing up on the East Coast, we generally have lighter winds. But if you know you’re going to be doing around the world rally or you’re going to be doing something in the Caribbean where there’s going to be higher winds, you might think about changing the shape of a sail or change the design characteristics of a sail. Especially a lot of boats only go with one headsail. So we’re asking one sail to do a lot, so we have to think about the best cloth, the best design characteristics and make sure all of our reefing options for that headsail are really working well.

Hand in hand with that shaping and sizing is clew height, now we have to think about visibility, is that a higher priority than performance? Clew height can help reduce chafing and the higher we go, generally we can start clearing the lifelines, clearing things on the deck, cabin house, chicken bars, all that kind of stuff but it also affects the way sail trims. Generally, the higher your clew is, the better your sails going to be reaching and running. The lower your clew is, the better it’s going to be up wind. Because if you think about the dynamics, your geometry, the lower your clew is, as you start the ease the sheet of the sail, you’re taking proportionately less load off the leech.

So you're starting to let the leech twist off or less load off the foot and more of the leech. As soon as you ease with a lower clew, the leech is going to twist off more and the foot’s not going to ease as much. Where if you have a higher clew, the sail’s more balanced so if you ease a sheet, you're easing more evenly off the leech and the foot, the sail’s better for reaching because of that. What I found is a lot of cruisers don’t change their leads fore and aft, inboard and outboard. So by going a little bit higher on the clew, you’ve created a better all-purpose sail that’s going to be trimmed 95% of the time the right way as supposed to 80% right and 20% wrong when you start to change your point of sail. Clew height becomes an important consideration in that regard.

Just like the mainsail, we want to think about what details of really important for us when we construct. Reefing reinforcements, it’s hard to see from this picture but when you have your tack patch, it goes here, there will be a second patch that comes down horizontally and extends into this area. As you reef the sail, you’ve got reef patching all in that head stay. Because if you just started reefing the sail without that, as you get back into here, there’s no reinforcement on the sail, you know, where it wraps around. You’d have one layer of cloth bearing all the loads; you want to have some reef reinforcements built into the sail.

I like reefing indicators and I don’t show them here. But I usually do a little red stripe or dots even, at 10% and 20%. It gives you that visual from the cockpit when you’ve reefed your sail in, makes it really nice. UV covers; UV covers if you go a higher tech material, you might go with a UV Dacron and they make the UV Dacron where it’s treated one side or it’s treated both sides. If it’s treated both sides, it gets a little bit heavier so instead of being four and a quarter rounds, it’s five and a half ounces but it last twice as long. That’s for good for performance range sails and it’s going to get you about six to seven years of life.

If you go Sunbrella, the Sunbrella materials that we see out there are about nine and a half to 10 ounces, that’s probably going to be a seven to 10 year life on the cover. So again, it comes back to what your drivers are affordability and performance issues versus longevity issues but UV covers are critical on all these sails. We like to have the UV cover wrapped around the back of the sail, a lot of UV covers we’ll see are a one side of the sail. Machine sown, hand sown, same as the main sails, head and tack webs here and I do have a strong Spectra so they have good flex bodies and they wear well. Wide seam allowances, multistep stitch and strong clew rings. This will just show you some pictures. 

I wrap all my webs at the head and the tack in the Sunbrella or in the Dacron so they’re UV covered. All my UV covers, we do a straight zigzag instead of the multistep. Because that’s sacrificial, we have to be able to remove that cover at some point in their future we place it. I want to make sure I can get it off without damaging the sail. This shows you these reef hash marks; this shows you machine stitch webs that are all underneath the UV and then the hand stitching and same thing with the clew rings. All the webs are underneath the UV, as we talked about in the very beginning, UV is a huge factor for all these offshore sails. The sails are out and in the sun a lot, we want to try and protect as much as possible all of the different, whether it’s stitching, whether it’s the material. Certain materials hold up well at UV, other materials don’t but the more we can cover from the sun, the longer the sail is going to last. 

We’ll go quickly, stay sails and solar jibs, we’re seeing a trend, used to be a lot of cutter rings where you had to stay sail, that’s a great sail plan for offshore sailing, really offers you a lot of options, we’ve seen a trend in the last 10 years towards solar jibs as I refer to them with more of a reach around the front. You see the Saga’s have that layout; some of the southerlies have that layout. This is a really nice option, the boat can sail well under the self-tacking jib or a small jib, not overlapper. Then this is more of a big lighter air, reaching oriented sail. 

The big key here is, if you have options to reduce sailing area without having to replace the sail or without having to change the sail on your furler, you're going to be in much better shape, we’ve even I think your dad’s boat was one of the first ones we did on. Then Andy’s boat I think you did on your 48th. But if it wasn’t set up for a stay sail, now you can do these removable inner four states that are made out of a dynes docks or something like that so you don’t have to have a wire anymore, there are a lot of options to deploy a stay sail. We’ve also done some of these where they’re actually on a torsion line that kind of rolls up with a little furling drum so you can actually have a deployable stay sail that’s separate and it’s not always air, there are lots of options for setting up a secondary headsail for heavy weather conditions.

Downwind sails, this kind gets to the fun part as kind of like the desert for your celebratory. Adds a lot of speed downwind, can really help asymmetrical spinnakers have become very user friendly now, I’ve got clients with 45 and 50 footers that sail these with just two people. Lots of different cloth weights depending upon the boat size. You can go everything from cruisers I recommend a three quarter ounce up town and a half, bigger boats may be even an ounce and a half to 2.2 ounce because they’re tri-radial, we can change weights of cloth so we can offer a lot of engineered approach as to making the sales stronger. This shows just the traditional dousing sleeve, which in many cases is the right way to go, and this shows a top down furler which has been kind of the buzz in the industry last couple of years.

They work really well, they’re pretty expensive and they’re not always as easy as the top of the sleeves. Technology, what I find is once you get over 50 feet, these top down furlers start to really come into their own when you’re in like a 40 or 45 footer, the sleeve might be just more practical and might be easier to use actually. We’ve been doing more, specialty sales, for downwind. This new design is like. All they have nine overlapping jibs when you start to reach with the boat with a small jib upfront, you’re going to lose a lot of horsepower so we’ve been doing a lot more of this reaching Gennaker’s. They’re usually setup on a furler so they’re very easy to operate, I’ve even got a number of clients that they made a conscious decision to go with the smaller genoa, maybe something like 115% LP and some kind of a reaching sail like this because it’s good reaching, it’s also good downwind.

It’s on a furler so they’ve chosen that route instead of a spinner and instead of a big genoa, they’ve deliberately gone to, ask you 43, they went to 150% jib, it’s their biggest head sail with a reaching type of sail like this on a furler. The traditional spinnaker, we all think about of symmetrical with the pole, they’re great if you’re making a long downwind passes but as cruisers, the pole, the extra sheets in guys, it’s more complex and you need more people to operate them.

With the cruising spinnaker, an asymmetrical spinnaker, it’s much easier for someone to single handed or two people to sail with that sail. This takes a few more than two people or takes two really experienced people to make that work, quite often it’s going to be one of those decisions of, “Is the passage long enough, are you going to be long enough to justify the effort to put it up.”

Then the last option downwind is just wing and wing which is quite often a very good option for us. If we’re some place in the 150, 180 range, you can wing in wing, put out a whisker pole, I show it without the main being up but you can also do with the main being up and have a preventer out the main, a lot of times you cannot do two headsail but just to wing out your genoa with the whisker Pole, take your main out the other way with the preventer and they’ll create the barn door effect.

It’s a very effective method of sailing down wind and it’s very controllable. So it’s something to think about, if you don’t have a whisker pole, you don’t have a preventer but you’re going to have to make a passage, they might be two very valuable things to pulling your boat. 

Now you’ve improved your downwind performance without adding a lot to your budget. The last thing we’ll move to is storm sails. In a perfect world, we should all have a way of deploying a storm jib or some type of storm sail forward and that’s where that inner force comes in so whether you’re cutting or you have a staysail up there now or whether you figure out a way or deploying a staysail.

I always recommend, if you have storm sails, deploy them either at dock, when it’s calm but use them before you need them. Go out and get a soap box. 79, the Fast Net Race, we had a first major, major tragedy in the racing industry and all the boats had storm sails but they never deployed them. They go out, they get caught in this huge storm, they have to deploy their sails and what they find out is, they didn’t know where they trimmed half of them, the slides didn’t fit in the mass because they never tried them. They met the rule by having it but they never tested it. 

A lot of the carnage that happened in that race came because the boats had storm sails but they were never tried so we want to try them. Fast forward to 1998 with the Sydney Hobart race. The Sydney Hobart race proved another thing. All those boats had storm sails, they all have sailed with them, they deployed them and it’s a race where you have to put it up before you do the race. The problem there was, the storm sails standards hadn’t been updated since the 1950’s. 

Now you have these modern day race boats with sizing recommendations for boats that were built in 1950. There were a lot bigger than what they should have been. You had much more easily driven hulls. So storm sails or something that we shouldn’t just say, “Okay, here is the recommended sizing and we just default to that. We should stop and think about what kind of boat do I have? How do I sail as just a husband and wife? Am I going to actively use them? 

If so, you want to think about how you design them, how you build them and how they’re going to be deployed. This shows, a lot of these single handed boats now, they’re doing this races, they’ll have this multiple furlers with multiple smaller and smaller sizes, this is a great idea for deploying a storm sail, having a little furler with a storm sail on it and now, the way they’re building these furlers, you could have a top down furler for a spinnaker and that can serve double purpose and be used for a storm jib.

Now you’ve got one piece of equipment you bought that’s being used in two different ways. This just shows, storm tri-cylinder ready bags. So you can have the track coming down, the sail’s already setup so you’re going offshore, it’s ready to be deployed. So if you need it, you're not trying to dig it out of a bilge, hank it on, it’s already hanked on the track and ready. This shows, a little pet peeve of mine, but this is a racing boat, he’s got his storm sails up and he’s got storm tri-sail connected to his boom. My feeling is always if you have the perfect storm sail, eliminate the boom, anytime you get to a third reef or storm tri-sail conditions, the boom’s a weapon, it’s not a tool. Immobilise the boom so it can’t be swinging around and let this sail more like this.

This is another bad picture but this shouldn’t be trimmed with a boom, it should just be trimmed to the aft, almost like a genoa. This shows you a really poorly executed storm tri sail, your storm tri sail should always be high enough that it’s not going to it someone in the head. Here, if they tack or if they jive, these sail’s going to sweep people off the boat and it can be done just by changing where your hoist is by having a paint on the sail. Storm tri sails are something that we shouldn’t go off shore and not give consideration to, we need to have a plan and we need to play with them before we get out there.

Just final thought for you to take away. You're not in this alone, there are lots of sail makers, they that have a lot of experience designing sails, lots of fabric choices, lots of equipment choices… some of the things, simple things have really made life easier for us. You’ve got a lot of people who have done this ahead of you. Talk to your friends and dock mates who have done some cruising but they’re just lots of options, lots of experience for you guys to kind of gain and share by talking to people.

Andy Schell: Thank you very much Chuck, that was excellent.

Chuck O'Malley: Thank you.

Interviewer: David Hows

Episode 12: Rob White Show Notes

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Hi folks we’re here this week with Rob White at Evolution Sails and Rob’s joining on the Ocean Sailing Podcast this week to talk specifically about sail making and sail selection. Welcome along Rob. 

Rob White: Thank you. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So Rob, take us back to when you get started with sail making. How long ago did you start making sails? 

Rob White: I started making sails in 1973, I was 15 years old and my father thought it would be a good profession to get into at the time as he and all his family were heavily into sailing, and it was probably a good way for getting sails at the right price. So I started by doing an apprenticeship like a lot of people did when they left school around 1973. 

Graham Sherring, partner at Evolution Sails is also the 2016 Australian Sports Boat Champion

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So your family had a big history in sailing as well? Were they passionate sailors? 

Rob White: Yes they were. They all sailed right back to my grandfather and they had big yachts in Auckland and I started in a class over there, it was a P-class and then went through various other classes from mistrals to M-class and also crewing on big boats and they were just called keelers. They sort of are around about between 40 feet and 20 feet long and there were lots of them and lots of opportunity for plenty of crewing and racing. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right and the P-class, even today the P-class is still a pretty significant class in terms of kids stepping into sailing and then on then beyond all sorts of other high speed, highly active Olympic class type boats and did you sail the M-class out of the Akarana Yacht Club? 

Rob White: Yes but we belonged to the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron. It wasn’t until several years later that the M-class joined Akarana although the boats always were left on the hard stand at Okahu Bay in front of the Akarana Yacht Club. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And the M-class being the old mullet bow, if you capsized those there was a lot of bailing to do to get those things back upright. 

Rob White: No. They were clinker built, unlike the mullet boat, which was cold-moulded kauri and we also had plastic bags for buoyancy and there was a good chance after a capsize you could get it up and return to the race. If it was really rough, you couldn’t get the water out and had to be towed back, but if the conditions were okay, you are back on again. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, great and if you look at the last, I guess, four decades in the sail making you’ve done, what are the biggest changes you’ve seen in recent years over the past couple of decades or so? 

Rob White: Probably the biggest thing out of the whole lot is the boats have got a lot bigger. A big boat in the 70’s was a 40 footer. A big boat now is, well, there’s every size. 80 feet long, you know, plus, plus. In 1979, there was a Maxi boat, Bumblebee IV, and it was announced that it has a 100 foot mast. It was the biggest mast put on a boat at that time. Now I’m told that some of the super yachts and that are up to 300 feet. So the boats have changed an awful lot and people’s boats just seem to be bigger. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So how does that limit your options with getting sails made? I mean you must need some pretty big facilities to even lie out those size sails inside sheds. 

Rob White: Yes well the sails have really got to be made lighter than what they were so various fibres have come in over the years. I mean it went from cotton to Terylene, to Dacron, to Mylar with Polyester, and Mylar with Kevlar, PBO, Spectra, Carbon Fibre, they’ve changed with it, the boats have changed. The mast and construction of the boats have changed using all these fibre's as well. So the boats have improved, and sails, over the years mainly because of the new materials that are available to make them out of. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, and so those materials have gotten stronger and what does that mean for boats? As things excel, they need to get stronger. What have you seen changed with loads and weights and stresses and some of the dangers that might come with that to? 

Rob White: Well yeah. If everything is lighter and the boat has a larger bulb or weight, which they do nowadays because lead was incorporated into the keels in the 60’s and 70’s and 80’s and now you’re finding that the lead is now in a bulb. So the righting moment is a lot stiffer, the cloth gives less, it is lighter so all in all, there’s a lot more power and because of this power, there’s a lot more weight on everything. 

With the keelboat, it’s not too bad because it can lean over to de-power whereas as a boat with like a multihull, which can’t. It point loads and therefore everything is directed to the fittings and the blocks, the jib tracks and everything that is on the deck. So depending on what the boat is like, it depends on the power. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yep, okay. So I’m talking to you Rob, because last year I came to you. I had a boat with an eight or nine year old Dacron on cruising sails, a 20 year old spinnaker and we were looking to do some more racing than we had been. I had no idea about where to start with sails and so I thought today was a good opportunity to have a chat to you because there’s all sorts of sailors out there who’ve got cruising boats of various ages and levels and don’t always know where to start. 

I know with some of the sails you made for me, carbon sails, where you said, “You won’t break the sail but you would break the boat.” That’s been true. I have snapped the out haul and I’ve sheered the piece off the top of my mast that holds the top of the code zero and as you put these strong, lighter sails on boats then every bit that’s connected to the sail needs to be checked as well from what I’ve seen in terms of the load and then transfer it to somewhere else to find the weakest part of the boat. 

So I guess my question is, lets say, I’ve got a cruising boat, say I’ve owned it for two or three years and started doing a bit of club racing and now I want to maximise this offshore racing potential and maybe I’ve got a genoa and a main and a gennaker maybe, and a spinnaker. How would I go about planning a sail wardrobe upgrade if I want to actually start racing my boat to it’s potential? How would I go about doing it? Where would I start? 

Rob White: Well, you’ve really got to look at everything. A production Beneteau is built to have one roll up furler headsail, a main with a couple of reefs and maybe a MPS or possibly even a storm jib. But quite often they don’t even have those. So then you’ve got a boat that’s a cruising boat that’s usually quite heavy, limited in its’ sails and you want to get it going. 

Where I would start with is a crew and a crew that’s prepared to value the money that you’re spending on the boat to get it going faster and to back you so that you would be going faster. I mean there’s no point in spending the money unless you’ve got everything going for you as of a good crew. Then, you will start at looking at making it a race boat. 

To be competitive in AOC or something like that, you’ve got to be prepared to forego your roller furler, make sure that you’ve got two spinnaker halyards, one for code zero or an extra and also a spinnaker. You’ll also need to make sure that you’ve got a spinnaker pole and then from there, you’ve got to go right through the whole boat and look at jib tracks and all that sort of thing. 

Because you cannot be competitive with one sail, you have to have a couple of genoas. In the old days, you would have a number one light, medium, heavy, number two, three, four, spit fire jib, storm jib. With the spinnakers, you have a half ounce three quarter, one and a half and a 2.2-ounce. So you are using a lot more sails. 

You don’t need to use that many sails because of the modern materials and that, where they don’t stretch, but if you’re going to get away with less sails and a couple of number ones and number three, which is sort of the bare minimum, you have to ensure that the stuff on your boat is working particularly well with the mast head boat. 

Your backstay is extremely important because that will change the range and the head source by changing the forestay. So in other words, in the lighter airs your backstay will be eased to create forestay sag, which will deepen your headsail. There’s no other way of changing its shape so as the breeze increases, then your forestay will be tightened as you tighten the backstay. 

Once the breeze gets up, until it’s too much and you’ve done as much as you can, you change head source and you might have to power up that head source slightly and go back and ease the backstay again and then you go through the whole scenario again as the breeze increases. As the breeze drops, you have to do the same thing in reverse and therefore, increasing the range of each sail. Now that’s basically the short and simple way of describing that. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah like changing gears in the car, right? 

Rob White: That’s right and it’s got to be done constantly. You’ve also got track positions that could be changed. Not that easily on a lot of cruising boats because they use a pin in the genoa car rather than a pulley with a slider, which is better but a typical 40 foot cruising boat is not set up at all like that at all. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: No, you’ve got to tack onto your new setting and then you’ve got to ride…

Rob White: Yeah, that’s right.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, I know when I was talking to you about sails last year, we could not hold our lane off the start line. We couldn’t point well and moving to the adjustable backstay has made a world of difference in terms of what we can do right now. So I guess the part of the point is that if you don’t upgrade the hardware, there’s no point just putting new sails on and hoping that everything else magically happens. 

Rob White: No, you have to do the whole thing. If you wanted to turn a cruising boat into a race boat, it’s just got to have everything. There’s no way around it. You know, the horsepower is the whole thing in the race and also as I said in the beginning, having that same crew, people that know the boat, people with the same goal will just make it that more easier and it’s worth doing the exercise. If you haven’t got the people, or the crew or the will, you won’t really get anything out of it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s a really, really good point. You can make half a dozen mistakes in a three hour race and give up one or two minutes each time and your race is over just through poor execution. 

Rob White: Exactly. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So it’s not to be understated. You can go a long way with a good crew before you need to look elsewhere at things to do to improve the performance of your boat. 

Rob White: That’s right. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So let’s say I’ve got a 40 foot boat that is 15 years old, I’ve got $25,000 to spend, how do I weigh up spending money on some of the more exotic type sails versus spending less per sail but having a wider range of sails? What would you recommend if I had say $25,000 to spend as a priority list? 

Rob White: Okay, your main sail is your best sail. It’s up 100% of your racing time. It’s up all the time, upwind from three knots to 30 knots. It’s up downwind for exactly the same. So it’s the sail that gets the most use so it is the most important one and you don’t want to have a main sail that is not performing well. 

With the headsail because you’ve got a couple of them, one might be a little tight, the other one might be a little deep or something, at least you can change them when the range falls out or something. It’s not quite as critical but a proper race campaign with boats like TP52’s or something with fully professional stuff, they don’t compromise anything. 

Everything is brand new at the start of the season but nobody with a cruising boat is going to do that and they’re not expected to either. Just look after the stuff. So many times you go down in our boats after a race and that, and everybody’s that keen to leave the sails aren’t packed properly and you’ve just got to realise that the motor and they’re an expensive article and to get the most out of them, treat them the way they should be. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yes, that’s a good point. I mean theoretically you can do probably more damage in the way you store them and handle them when you’re not racing than actually racing if you don’t care for them. 

Rob White: Absolutely. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: One of the things that I found really interesting when we talk about Dacron at one end of the scale and whatever the modern equivalent is of that, and carbon at the other end of the scale, if you look at that sort of data we see sort of Dacron stretches maybe 80 or 90% over five years and carbon stretched 1.5%. In terms of value over the longer term with carbon when you’re paying 40 or 50% more, it’s actually not that significantly more in terms of cost relative to the value you’re probably getting in year, two, three, four and five where if you look after your sails, you’re probably getting some, from the cruising-racing point of view, you are probably getting some pretty good value if you take a five year view rather than just 12 month view. How do you look at where you recommend Dacron versus carbon or the other materials that sit in between? 

Rob White: Well I’m quite surprised at how long the carbon type sails are lasting. I mean you’re getting quite a few seasons out of them. Three seasons out of them now, at least and it just seems to be getting better. I mean the industry is not going to go backwards. It will be always pushing forward with new trends and new stuff. It won’t go back to that Dacron. 

Dacron is quite good for club racing and it definitely is one of the only ones to use along with cruise laminate for cruising sails. Dacron does have the disadvantages of being quite heavy and I guess that’s why it lasts so long. It’s definitely still got its place but if you want to step up from basic club racing to the Brisbane to Gladstone’s and all that sort of stuff, you’re going to be looking for that extra half hour at least faster down the track because that’s what you’ll lose by. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yep, that’s right. Especially if you’re racing on a fixed rating system like AIC. 

Rob White: Yeah, that’s right. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Are you seeing quite a lot of growth now in the uptake of carbon sails on the keel boat? Is it catching on at a lower level, or at a club level now? 

Rob White: Yeah, you’re quite right. Yeah, I am. It is amazing, people are now buying, that are doing the club racing and that, they are certainly stepping up to that black look. I don’t know whether it’s trendy or not but I mean all helps but yeah, they are. Even people that are doing Wednesday night races and things like that, they are not really buying Dacron sails anymore. They are buying something a little bit better. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s becoming quite fashionable isn’t it? 

Rob White: Yeah, it is.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Something different than white. I mean just at Southport Yacht Club we’ve had three keel boats in the space of six months invest in carbon sails and so that’s not something that happened probably in six months prior or six months prior to that. 

Rob White: Yeah, I know. We’re sending them up and down Queensland as well. So it’s everywhere. I wouldn’t be surprised that there would be a lot more laminate sails than Dacron probably now. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so if I’ve got, let’s say I’ve got $40,000 to spend as opposed to $25,000, then what extra sails would you recommend in terms of building a racing wardrobe outside a couple of genoas and a jib and a main and what else would I look at? 

Rob White: Well, then you’ll be starting to step up to like a membrane sail, which is a sail really made by a machine apart from all of the edges and batten pockets and all of that sort of stuff. They are not made in Australia. They are imported from overseas. Extra sails are important like code zeros, things the typical cruising guy boat is fairly heavy and the light air is always suffering. 

So therefore, these big code zero type sails have totally changed their game and the light air, if you just cracked off, they can get a good speed probably because of their weight, they can maintain it and over a long period of time, that was quite a good elapsed time. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, I’ve been surprised with the code zero. I thought it was just a light weather sail but it’s really both and the light, if you can go three knots instead of two, percentage wise that’s a massive increase. But in heavier breeze if you’re at 90 or 100 degrees off the wind, you can carry those code zeros in 50, 60, 70 knots and the boat flies a lot and they really are quite versatile sails. 

Rob White: Well it doesn’t take much because as soon as the boat gets moving, the apparent wind increases. So therefore, everything starts multiplying so they just do make the boat go good. The code zeros are designed to go after the beam, just after the beam in a lot of wind and that’s not uncommon. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah and what would be the maximum? What was the crossover point between a code zero and a spinnaker in terms of once you get after the beam, what’s the metrics for sort of changing? 

Rob White: Well every boat is different and that changeover has to do with I guess we call it polar diagrams where apparent winds, true winds, boat speed all these factors that you’re in, your boat has more or can have a sheet done by the designer and you’ll see where different sails overlap and what your target should be. 

So it’s quite easy if the boat’s got that. If you haven’t got that, you’ve really got to start making notes yourself of when the boat’s been going well and maybe filling out a log after every race. It will be handy also to find out who was on board so you can remember your best days and also who you beat and different speeds you got. But if you were to purchase a new boat now, they would come with all of that. It would have crossovers for different size spinnakers, jive angles, all of that is available. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So same kind of stuff the Volvo guys use where they just literally known how to paint by numbers based on optimising their speed based on… 

Rob White: I would assume so. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: …sail combination. 

Rob White: Yeah, they would have that all worked out and of course, they would. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And that’s the trouble, as soon as you’ve got a bigger sail wardrobe, there’s sometimes when you’re not actually sure which sail to put up. 

Rob White: That’s right. Well, they don’t really have that big a wardrobe and they’re limited under there rules what they can have anyway, but for sure they would know exactly which one, which wind angle, which wind breeze, which sail is the one they’re going to have up. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And so for a cruising sailor who doesn’t have that, they can just start building that information. 

Rob White: They can start building their own. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, what angle you will be sailing, what speed and what sails would you use? 

Rob White: Yeah, you just jot it down. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. 

Rob White: And it won’t take long, but as I said, all the newer boats and that, the designers will supply them. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah and there are some benefits in knowing your boat speed polars because if you ever decide to pay for weather routing with some of the long offshore races, if you haven’t got boat polars, if the weather router hasn’t got boat polars to work with it’s very hard to actually give you a route to follow if they don’t actually know. 

Rob White: Yeah, that’s right. They’re just going to be relying on you by radioing and then telling you what speed they assume they’re going to be doing. Yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so if I was to purchase say some new carbon sails for my cruising boat so I can do some serious racing, how would you go about working out what the best size and shape sails are for my boat design given that what cam with the production boat aren’t necessarily going to be for the exact same shape you use going forward to maximize dimensions you’ve got to work with? 

Rob White: Okay, well the first thing that we’d look at is the type of boat, the weight of the boat, what we already know about it’s speed, in the case of yours versus a lighter displacement boat. A lighter boat will have slightly flatter sails, where yours will be quite reasonably deep. If you’re predominantly racing offshore, your sails will be deeper again. 

So that, you know, it can handle the swells and all that sort of stuff to keep the boat going. If the boat is being raced on flat water, well then the sails will be flatter because you are not looking to go over any swell or anything. You’re looking for height and say you work through the worst scenario is a chop or something. So the sails have got to be shaped predominantly for what you are doing. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and what about dimensions in terms of how high you go, in terms of mast, head sails and how far back you go in terms of where the end of the boom is, what do you need to do there to maximise those dimensions? 

Rob White: Those dimensions really got to do with your rating and you have optimising rating around your sail there. So the boat would be rated, have a certificate, we will see how that looked with what head sails it had on it and then we’d either advise to go bigger or maybe smaller. Same with spinnakers and the sizing is done around the rating. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and so just in terms of the rating, if you’re getting an IRC rating, biggest sails aren’t always best, right? Given your biggest main, genoa, and spinnaker are actually what’s measured. So just big for the sake of big isn’t necessarily going to get a better result. 

Rob White: No, you’ve really got to do a kid of test certificate or something like that but a bit is known with bigger spinnakers have penalties possibly worth taking a lot of the time. So yeah, there’s a bit known and how to do it easily but you certainly wouldn’t just go and make big sails and say that the boat’s got a sail to get it to a higher rating. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. 

Rob White: It might be detrimental to it. Once again, as I said before, it really depends on what boat it is, what weight it is and what you’re racing in. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and so we’ve got IRC rated at the end of last year. I know that one of the IRC measures who will remain nameless said, “Oh, there’s no point in getting IRC rating because you’re never going to win anything,” which was encouraging at the time we were getting measured for that. 

But nonetheless, it’s a 23 year old Beneteau, we’re going okay in terms of our rating. We’ve found ourselves to be competitive in half of the races that we have done so far. How does somebody decide where it’s worth getting an IRC rating or not or whether it’s going to be a waste of time? How do you know based on the type of boat you have what’s going to work, whether it’s going to be worthwhile?

Rob White: Well I disagree with that. I think any boat is capable of winning if you set it up properly and crew it correctly. You know, I think anybody could do quite well and I’ve usually found it reasonably favourable to the older boats. Once again, to say that you’re not going to win anything, I think that’s wrong and I think you can win. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, we’ve had some IRC success already in the early days. 

Rob White: Yeah, you can have a Gladstone race or something where the wind is all over the place, and all that sort of stuff and you can rock it, it’s surprising what wins. I remember in the Brisbane Gladstone for example in the IOR days, and there was a Yachting World keelboat that Jack Holt designed from England. It was like an etchell or something. Well, it won its fair share of Gladstone races and who would have thought that? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, so people shouldn’t exclude themselves from the opportunity really.

Rob White: Definitely not. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Do some research, check it out, talk to other sailors. 

Rob White: Absolutely. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and the good thing about IRC or any of those other ORCR ratings is the effects to your boat. So if you sail it to it’s potential, you sail the shortest course and the weather goes your way as well. You can be competitive unlike PHS where your rating is going to shift around all the time. 

Rob White: That right, you can continually win because nobody can change it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah and there are allowances for the age of your designs. So if you do have an older boat, that’s part of the effect that helps you in your rating. 

Rob White: There’s all sorts of things in the rating. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so tell me about the current designer to production process now. So when I had sails made, you’re talking to me about them being designed in one country on the computer and then cut out somewhere else and they put it together somewhere else. How does modern sail making work now in terms of the production process? 

Rob White: You will find that most companies are associated one way or another with some sort of franchise. All that really is a share like a design share of information about sails and boats. So if someone, it could be in another country, it could be in another city, has got clear success in one particular type or boat or design, he would share within his group and nobody else. 

The reason being is because they all share their advertising and marketing and you stay within your group as long as it’s good for you and it just sort of puts you in a bit bigger picture but basically everybody is still really is pretty hands on with their own stuff and their own customers and their own boats. I don’t know of any loft that would make sails without their own input because you’re trusting your customer with somebody from overseas that they wouldn’t know or anything like that, they want to deal with you. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. So Evolution Sails they’re here on the Gold Coast but you’ve got access to international design software that gives you the ability to share intellectual property from sail making experience over the world to then tailor what you were doing for your customer based on the conditions they’re going to race in, but you’ve got access to that type of technology. 

Rob White: That’s exactly what happens. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. 

Rob White: And then of course we know where you’re sailing, we know what you’re doing, we know what your crew is doing and all of that sort of thing and therefore, it can be tailored to suit you and your area and information can be sourced about the construction of the sails, the shapes of the sails, and what we use it as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Then you take the carbon sails and then they’re laser cut, right? Laser cut in Sydney for Evolution Sails. 

Rob White: Sometimes, yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Sometimes. So what governs Sydney versus elsewhere? 

Rob White: We buy most of our cloth from Sydney and our cloth suppliers have the plotters down there and so it enables us to get the sails down there. We also have a plotter here but we don’t use it as much as we used to probably mainly on crosscut sails because we found it useful and less mistakes to have it done there. So it just comes up, just like the cloth did before. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, okay. 

Rob White: And then the sail is ready for assembly but it’s all designed in house. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And is it common for standalone sail makers that work from home or work for a small business to have that access to the same kind of laser or design type technology or is there still a collection of, I guess, more traditional sail makers out there that are not using that technology versus the Evolution type brand where they’ve got access to that network globally of technology and equipment? 

Rob White: I think now everybody has access to it. I mean you can buy sail design programs of various types, you know? Some are really basic and then some are super complex. I mean it depends on how much work you want done with. Obviously our one is quite comprehensive because it does the whole thing, from performance analysis to reinforcing sizes to weights and everything like that. So I know there was a week that I look at the sail sailing, before we even start to make it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. So Rob, you’ve done lots and lots of sailing and you’ve got your own boat that you actively sail and race and cruise, so what tips would you give that would contribute to boat speed improvements for older cruising boats or typical production cruising boats that most people wouldn’t even think about or appreciate that they can tweak on their boats to get some more speed out of them? 

Rob White: Well with the cruising boats it’s just like all boats, just take everything off it that’s not being used. You will end up with a lot cleaner boat, it will be nicer downstairs and certainly boats cart that much rubbish around, for what reason I don’t know. So that’s a good place to start. A typical cruising guy might sail around with a three bladed fixed prop. Have a look at putting a feathering one it. The difference it makes is unbelievable. 

So there’s little things like that that will make the boat go quite a lot quicker. If you do have to carry a lot of weight on it, watch where it’s stowed. Have it around the centre of the boat, it will help with the pitching and all that sort of thing. So you don’t have to do a lot to make it go a bit quicker. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s just surprising what you can do. The boat I bought, I just assumed it had the standard cruising gear on and I kid you not, I’ve got a 2.7 meter high 7 meter long shelving system at home that’s full of gear that came off my boat, and I don’t even miss it and still there’s some on the floor. That’s how much stuff was on that boat and it’s amazing how much higher it sits in the water. If you’re sailing in zero to 10 knots it’s even more of a factor, right? Anything is going to get up and get going in 15 to 25 knots but if you had light winds, weight has got a huge effect. 

Rob White: Yeah, the lighter the boat the nicer it is to sail. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yes, it’s a lot more responsive as well. Okay, so say you’ve got a sailor who’s sailing right now around in a 10 year old reasonably sort of stretched and tied Dacron sails, how much of a speed difference can new sails make in terms of an all-around difference percentage wise? Are we talking about a 5% difference, a 25% difference? What do you see in your experience? 

Rob White: I think because the main thing is to do with the weight. The weight of a Dacron sail and of course, if it is stretched and that, it will be attributing very much to the healing of the boat and therefore the boat will get a lot harder on the helm. The sails will lose their initial shape, being a Dacron sail and there are ways of flattening them with your outhaul and your mast bend and all that sort of thing. 

For cruising, and people sort of cruising around the islands and all that sort of thing, I don’t think it makes much difference really because they will just be going, there’s no point in having a carbon sail or anything like that. You could be looking at something like cruise lam, but there seems to be a lot of problems with sails with sun damage more and more than with the laminates and the double taffeta getting mould inside the layers. 

For the tropics and north of Brisbane this mould thing seems to be, you know, it plagues the sails and they start delaminating. So for someone that was just cruising only and I would get the best quality Dacron I could. It will last longer and okay in seven years your shape might be a bit out, but does that matter?

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, if you’re just cruising. 

Rob White: Yeah, I mean from the Gold Coast to Noumea or something, you know the distance, I doubt the difference would be an hour. You’re better just concentrating on your routing and getting that right because that would be more than having a fancy sail that was not reliable. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And then if you’re using that cruising boat for racing, that’s where those difference start becoming substantial. 

Rob White: Exactly, yeah. If you’re not racing why bother with something too fancy? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, which then means you’ve got to spend extra time looking after it when you get to every anchorage. 

Rob White: Yeah. Now obviously if you’ve got a super boat like a super yacht, you can’t have Dacron sails because it’s just not strong enough. As soon as the boats are getting over 70 feet, Dacron doesn’t have place. You’d have no choice but to… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That would be bloody heavy too, right? 

Rob White: Yeah, with over 70 feet, you’ve got to have proper laminated sails. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and okay so let’s talk about new sail. So what are some of the common trim mistakes you see with sailors and new sails? The reason I ask this is we were making quite a few without realising it and then Caedric came out, one of the sail makers came out with us for a sail one Sunday and we just learned a ton of tricks. We just didn’t even know what we didn’t know. Because our sails couldn’t do those things but what are some of the trim mistakes you see with new sails? 

Rob White: Winding them on too tight and not letting the sails breathe, how do you tension is still important. Shedding position, but there are things that you’re not going to read in book or learn in a book. There are things that you’ve just got to have experience and once again, you’ll get one guy up, one week trimming a headsail and you’ll get a different one the next week. 

It’s just a different game, that’s why when you do start this more serious racing you’ve really got to work hard on that crew and make sure you get the same ones so you’re all on the same page. The ultimate trim is on the guy on the helm and he’s got to be able to feel that, whether the boat is going right or it’s not. 

Look at the leech of the mainsail have a look at the twist and make sure it’s not too tight. Be aware and thinking all the time and you are going to feel that through the helm. So the helm’s man has got a fairly important job that’s why you’ll see on the real top boats now he’s not that involved in tactics as such. Someone else will be doing that; he looks at his job, the feel of the boat and the trim. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. 

Rob White: He talks to his guys about that but he’ll also be talking to the tactician as well but he won’t be doing everything. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yep. 

Rob White: Because he can’t if he wants to do it properly. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: If he wants to optimise the boats performance. One of the things you taught us was you can go as fast as you like but if you’re healing your boat over 25 or 30 degrees you’re just going sideways and we’ve got a little thingy in there now that measures the angle of heal and all the crew can see and when we managed it to 15 degrees it will lie down heavy, and gosh it’s made a difference. 

Unto the point where we just kept easing our sails, or change a sail if we can’t keep it at 15 degrees and you don’t appreciate it until you sail behind someone else who's healed to 20 or 25 or 30 degrees, you literally just see them sliding sideways. 

Rob White: Well, that’s like what we’re talking about before with the polar diagrams. You’ll find stuff that your boat likes and other boats might not necessarily like that at all. That might be way too much heel for somebody else. The other thing to keep an eye on is your VMG instrument and that is quite important because it is the one that gives you where you are from the mark and your quickest route there. 

So in other words, sometimes you sail a boat a little bit free and then you will get speed up and you’re going too fast so you start pinching and that and then you sail these S’s and that’s the way to get a good VMG. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. 

Rob White: But once again as I have said before, all the boats are different. A heavy boat does have to foot off, get the speed up and then you start winding it up a bit and then when it gets a little bit slow, you go down again. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and so in terms of one end of the scale you’ve got Dacron and the other end of the scale you’ve got, I guess, carbon. Beyond that you’ve got those moulded sails now. What are the other sail material options in between that you’d consider as a cruiser racer? 

Rob White: Well there are lots, it really starts getting down to cost. Just polyester, Mylar, there’s ones in the past like PBO, there’s spectra, which was used for racing a lot but it’s now mainly for the big cruising boats. I don’t really see them on racing boats anymore. We don’t sell it for that reason. We mainly use it on something like a large catamaran or something where there’s a big race profile that’s got to be stood up. 

There’s Vectran and basically that seems to be the ones that are left. Kevlar comes in various forms and there’s names bandied about like Dyneema, and all sorts of different fibres that are used from one time or another. To be quite honest, it’s a bit hard keeping track of them all but they basically all do the same thing, they supply the structure or the strength and light weight. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So looking at the next two to three years ahead as far as you can, what do you think are the top two or three materials that are going to be the most widely used from what you are seeing right now? 

Rob White: Well, commercially available is the best or most commonly used is carbon fibre. It has an advantage where it bonds very well. Spectra is a very greasy fibre and therefore it doesn’t bond or laminate as well even though it has good properties, like UV and that. Carbon fibre bonds very well. It takes the glues well and the sails, as I said, I’m surprised how long they last. They last well because the bonding is really good. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and then like I’ve certainly found with my carbon sails, by the time that you fine tune them a bit and put the extra strong points on for anti-chaffing and anti-wear then if you can sort of take care of those high wear areas then you can look after your sails quite easily. 

Rob White: Yeah, well you’ve just got to look at your spreader patches where they rub over a stanchion or that they don’t all touch the caps down the bottom there where the rigging screws are. They’ve just got to make sure to put a boot, a leather boot on your rigging screw or we would patch on the sail anyway but anything to stop any chaff is good. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And if you do all that work and beef that stuff up when you first get those sails then you’re setting yourself up for… 

Rob White: Well, it’s been a long time since I’ve seen a sail actually blow out by itself. It’s usually because it’s ripped on something. I mean water doesn’t hurt the sails. I don’t think wind really hurts them; you’ve got to get them off. You’ll know when to get them off because the boat will feel uncomfortable. But any rip I’ve seen in the last years has always been because there hasn’t been a sail blowing out at all. 

They’re constructed with an Ultra Bond glue system, which stops any slit seem slippage and the Ultra Bond gluing system, I guess is a glue that is pretty similar to what’s used in the manufacture of the material to start with and once again, I have never actually seen one let go.  

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, they’re extremely strong these days, extremely strong.

Rob White: Yeah. It’s amazing. I haven’t actually seen one let go. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well when I snapped an outhaul, I snapped a pretty chunky metal fitting off the top of my mast and then the other thing that I don’t know if I told you about, you probably knew because you repaired the sail but we were tacking the genoa and the genoa got caught behind the radar and the trimmer didn’t look up and kept winching it, and literally just snapped the radar completely off the mast with the carbon sail, it was so strong. But then it ended up putting a bit of a tear in the sail because it was then flapping over the broken bracket, but that’s how…

Rob White: Well the radar is another thing that should go. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, you keep telling me that. 

Rob White: A radar on the front of the mast on a racing boat is a… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s a no-no. 

Rob White: Yeah, well it’s going to slow your tacks down and all of that and of course it’s another thing that you can damage the sail. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s a work in progress that one. 

Rob White: Yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I’ve got a couple of things I’m testing but it might have to come off ultimately. 

Rob White: Like you’re leveraging a pole down the back or something like that. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah that’s an option. 

Rob White: If you want to persist with it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s an option. Okay, so I guess on a different tack, let’s say I bought a 45 footer and I plan to go long distance cruising with my partner so how can I configure my sail wardrobe for short handed sailing, so just two of us, without having to compromise on speed? What would you recommend I’m still capable of using like spinnakers? Code zeros? What do you suggest? 

Rob White: Well I would set that the boat up as a cutter. So you’ve got two roller furlers at the front, one with your genoa or yankee, probably more of a 125% overlapping genoa. A staysail that is on there that is built strong enough to withhold a storm and then you wouldn’t have to go to the front of the boat in rough weather. 

So from the back of the boat, you can furl up your headsail and your staysail would be there ready. It also is quite fast for just general reaching because you’ve got two headsails up; creates quite a nice slot down behind back of the mainsail and all that and carter rig is really nice reaching too for two handed. For light air sails, I would be looking a code zero type of sail that once again was on a furler and that’s all I would have. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Out on the bowsprit or something on the front. 

Rob White: Yeah and the bowsprit doesn’t have to be that long. It’s only just got to clear the sail so it doesn’t touch the pulpit. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So it’s just clearing your forestay and existing… 

Rob White: That’s all. You want to be able to reach the tack of it to take it off because when the breeze starts getting up a bit, why have it up there? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, well that’s right. You don’t want to send your partner sort of six feet out off in front of the bow, on the big seas and trying to attach it. 

Rob White: No, no and a lot of boats you probably won’t even have to modify them at all. All you’ve got to do is worry that it clears the pulpit. So if it does that you don’t have to do anything, you know? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. 

Rob White: And then you’ll find you use them a lot. And then when it’s blowing with your two headsails on the furler, your staysail and your genoa, you can handle anything. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and what about when you’re running square? So what’s your view on spinnakers with socks or those parasail type spinnakers that are sort of open at the top three quarters of the way up? What’s your view on those if you’re shorthanded it in the… 

Rob White: Well parasails I’ve seen them and we’ve had them in here to repair but I’ve never made one and they look extremely complicated and I don’t really like them except for one thing, everybody that’s bought one in has absolutely loved it. So I think it’s one of those things that you’ve got to use because I haven’t used one it’s a bit hard for me to comment. But as I said, they look complicated and that, but everybody that’s come in, honestly they rave about the things. They reckon they only set themselves. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, well you read those Atlantic rally for cruisers crossing those they have them on for 23 days because they’ve got that slot apparently that they can take gusts without loading the boat up. 

Rob White: Yeah, they all rave about it. So because I haven’t used one it’s a bit hard for me to comment on it. But you know, it’s a bit hard to ignore the fact that they all like them. The other thing with running dead square on a cruising boat, you’ve got to have at least 12 knots I find because of wind, because of the mainsails and that shake around and you’ve got the preventers on. 

Then you’ve got a pole your headsail out because it will just whip you. So what I tend to do on my boat anyway is motor. I just have to check it over, take time to charge the batteries up, get the preventer to hold the boom out, roll the headsail up, and when 12 knots comes open everything up again. Well I just want to make sure I don’t drop below six and a half knots.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, I am a big fan of keeping the average speed up. 

Rob White: Yeah, if I’m going six and a half, that’s fine and I am cruising. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah and then what’s your experience with spinnakers and socks and two people being able to handle those types of sails? Or is that still a little bit thin on the ground? 

Rob White: I like socks. I do have the top down furler on my boat for a spinnaker but I am still practicing with that. The socks are good. They’re really good because they are fairly simple and they certainly capture the sail and then you can drop it easily into a locker or down your forehead hatch. The top down furlers are quite expensive and I haven’t yet really experienced one in a lot of wind yet. 

They work pretty good in a light morning at the marina but I must admit, on my last cruise I didn’t use it. But that was only because the wind angles weren’t right or anything like that but it will be interesting to see how it goes in a lot of wind. Hopefully they're really good, but certainly in the lighter air they’ll work.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah like I feel, I don’t anymore, but I did have the gennaker in the sock and you can literally set the auto pilot, go and hoist it yourself, open it up and let it flap, and then come back and set the sheet. And you can actually do it single handed if you need to, but that was in, you know, 15 knots not 25 to 30 knots. 

Rob White: I mean 20 years ago or 30 years ago when socks were first around people came and asked for them all the time. The hoops were stainless steel bit of rod bent down with a bit of a hose hanging onto it or something but now with the Kevlar bells and beautifully shaped bells and the ropes are all running down their own individual pockets and all that, I mean they’re just trouble free. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s cool. I mean you’re probably not going to have an old one, because I think if it actually gets stuck up, you’ve pulled it up too tight, either you can’t get it back down again, but then you can just bear away and drop it onto the deck but that’s the only problem I have found. Okay, so sail maintenance; what are the things that I should do as a sailor that will extend the life of my sails? 

Rob White: Mainly make sure it’s covered. Nothing really hurts a sail except for sun and it hurts it badly. It damages thread and it deteriorates the materials. Good covers are really important and they’re insignificant in cost compared to what it’s covering. Put the cover on. One of the most common things that we do here is replace UV strips on genoas. 

When I wonder down to the marina and have a look, some of these boats don’t go out that often and I wonder why are they still up. It’s not that hard to pull your genoa down. If you’re going to go overseas for three months or six months, take your sail down, drop it down below and it will be in exactly the same condition when you get back. 

To have them sitting up there all the time and going, “Oh well, the UV strip, I’ve hardly used the sail,” that’s no excuse. The thing is that as long as it’s up it’s being used, the sail is being used and eventually, it gets through the UV strip, when the UV strip starts breaking down and it does get to the foot and the leech of the genoa, and it’s just sunburn. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah or you have some excessive wind and your sails just starts to un-fill a little bit and now you’ve got six inches of sail out of the sun and not just the UV strip protecting it anymore and suddenly you’ve got a damage starting to occur. 

Rob White: Yeah, well you know, some of the people just don’t take any precautions at all. A line could chaff through and it could be the line that used to furler up the headsail. Once that’s undone, the whole sail undoes and then it will take a couple of hours and there will be no sail and then you still see that. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yes, that’s true in itself. Okay, so thanks for all of your technical advice on sail design and sail selection and so, someone’s bought a boat and they’re thinking about getting some new sails, what’s the best way to go about choosing a sail maker who’s going to do the job for you and help you figure all of this out. What’s the best way to do that? 

Rob White: Well, you’ll find that the best way is if you’ve had someone or a friend or something that’s experienced with a sail maker that they’re prepared to recommend is by the far the best way and the most comfortable way for you. The other way is to certainly get somebody that is in your area because you’ll be wanting personal service and you will be wanting measurements checked because that’s quite comprehensive on the amount of measurements that needs to be taken. So you’re better off if your sail maker can actually do that. It also offers you a guarantee that the sails will fit and that any ongoing problems are easily solved because the sail maker is there. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah and there’s, from a practical sense, the fact that your sail maker can get to your boat easily because it’s not miles away and I know from going through the planning process and then the post kind of new sails process, I probably came in here 30 or 40 times and either the planning or getting things tweaked or bringing things in that you were just fine tuning or bringing stuff into the damage repair. So if you’re dealing with somebody that’s out of the way then it does start becoming a bit of an inconvenience as well. 

Rob White: Well, it’s good to get a handle on the process of your sail, why you’re buying it, what it’s being made out of, how is it being designed? If you know, the more you know about it or the more interested you’re in it, the more you’ll look at it when you’re actually sailing or performance and appreciate how to change the shape of it and how to do the best with it and how to maintain it. Without that, without buying a sail that way, you’re in the mercy of the gods. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah and one of the big things to me was when I first spoke to you and I looked at another, a couple of the other sail makers at the same time, you were the only one that was willing to come out on the boat and you said, “We’ll get on the boat. We’ll help you get it tuned up once we get the sails on the boat. We’ll help you fine tune them,” and you came out, Kendrick came out and that made all the difference. 

So from a sailing point of view, if you’ve got a sail maker that’s willing to actually get on your boat and help you tune them up after the sails are delivered, I think that’s a big bonus because there’s another five or 10% of those little things that you don’t know and suddenly, I found myself with an adjustable backstay, with a Cunningham, with some other settings that I hadn’t had before and you don’t know what you don’t know. So a sail maker that is willing to do that for you I think is valuable as well. 

Rob White: Well anybody that comes in and wants to improve their boat and are prepared to take the steps of training the same crew, getting everything sorted out, looking at their deck gear, looking at every part of your boat, it’s worth us getting involved because as I have said before, anybody can win. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yep. 

Rob White: If you do all of these things, your boat will go faster and there’s no way that it can’t. There are a lot of factors and your sails aren’t just the only one. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, they’re significant but that’s right. The boat, weight, the cleanliness of the hull, the crew, if you get those things right… 

Rob White: That’s right, a clean hull, a good prop, there’s lots of things. The sails are definitely important but any boat can be improved and made to go faster quite easily. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. So, just on a personal note, so recently you come off, two or three months back now I guess, you sailed your boat down to Tasmania and still down there now, you’ve been down recently sailing or working on your boat or I’m not sure what you’ve been doing down there actually, but you’ve been out of the sail loft. It’s been crazy here. What are your sailing plans for the future? What’s ahead for you now? 

Rob White: Well I have taken my boat down to Tasmania. I wasn’t sailing very much here at all and I’ve decided to leave it there for a year or two, very fortunate at the moment where air fairs are quite cheep and also you have marina fees and the standard marinas down there are very, very good and I just thought that is was a good opportunity, now that I get a little bit of a time off. 

So I am able to go down there and enjoy that, and do a bit of cruising. So it reminds me of when I was younger in the Hauraki Gulf off the Bay of Islands and all that sort of thing and it’s just a bit different than doing the normal thing up to Airlie Beach with the Whitsundays because there’s not really that many places on the East Coast where you can go around islands and cruise and all that sort of thing. And this happens to be a good isolated place where there are certainly no crowds.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, right. I bought my boat in Auckland and sailed it to Australia and I love the Hauraki Gulf and we had a couple of years where we were here and it was there and we flew over there a few times through the year for weekends but some six week trips in the summer and it was fantastic. So not many people think about that, but you can set your boat up to the remote from where you are and then get to experience that destination without having to live there or take a big break off work, on the basis that you can travel every so often and spend a weekend or a week or a couple of weeks and just keep exploring something different. 

Rob White: That’s right. It’s like chartering a boat, except it happens to be yours. I’ve set mine up so I could work from it as well with sail design and other things around the business and all of that sort of thing to help out while I’m away but it is really good to get down there. It’s a lot cooler and wild life is certainly different and I love looking at it, at the penguins and everything. It’s just a neat place. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. Okay and how much of Tasmania do you plan to see? I mean are you going to go right around it at some point or just exploring some parts of the coast line? 

Rob White: No, I’ll do the lot. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Great, okay. Excellent, well thanks Rob for putting aside the time today and I know that when I said to you about interviewing you for the podcast, you didn’t even really know what a podcast was. 

Rob White: That’s correct. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So thanks for sharing your knowledge. I think it will be really, really insightful and really helpful for the thousands of people who I’ve not got listening to the podcast and hopefully as a result some of those cruising sailors who find themselves owning a cruising boat and getting a bit of taste for racing or cruising further afield and are thinking about what to do next sails-wise, hopefully this helps them along the way with making that sort of next step decision and improving their sail inventory and ending up at a much better place as a result. 

Rob White: Absolutely. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So thanks Rob. 

Rob White: Thank you David. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Good luck with your continued cruising around the Tasmanian coast. 

Rob White: Thank you.

Interviewer: David Hows

Episode 11: Andy Lamont Show Notes

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Hi folks, welcome along to this week’s episode of the Ocean Sailing Podcast. We’re back on Impulse catching up with Andy Lamont so hey, thanks for coming back Andy. 

Andy Lamont: Oh, it’s a pleasure mate. It’s great to be back.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So I thought it would be great to check in with you, your first interview which was a couple of episodes, has been really, really popular and we’d had lots and lots of interest in your story and with all the images that you supplied. There has been lots of visits in the page and so I thought given a couple of months have gone by now and your trip’s now a whole lot closer than it was, that it would be good to check back with you on the progress you have made in terms of the further changes and upgrades and the extra bits and pieces with the boat. 

Then also, what else has been happening? I know you’ve done some stuff sponsorship wise, I know you’ve been doing some stuff world record wise that you’re looking at doing and some other ideas you’ve got around collecting sea samples. So tell us what you’ve been up to? 

Andy Lamont on board Impulse at the Southport Yacht Club

Andy Lamont: Well, I guess that the biggest news is that just after I spoke to you and we recorded the first episode, I found out about a guy called Bill Hatfield who was going for the world record in the 40 foot class doing a west bound circumnavigation and I thought that record had been broken a long time ago. I knew that Chay Blyth had done it back in the late 60’s. 

He did a west bound circumnavigation just after the Golden Globe Race and that was in a 59 foot boat called British Steel and I just assumed that that record had been broken a long, long time ago. When I found out that it hadn’t been broken, and Bill had been going for the record it was an incredible story. 

He got around Cape Horn and got hit by a big storm and it was apparently blowing like 60 knots plus for quite a few days. He put out a drag and run before the storm, which basically took him back into Cape Horn again. When the storm abided he was below Diego Ramirez Islands and he was starting to pull his drag back in. For some reason, he wasn’t clipped on and he got knocked flat by a big wave and a breaking wave, thrown out of his boat. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Wow, into the water?

Andy Lamont: Into the water, this was below Cape Horn, and he was in the water and looking at his boat 10 or 15 meters away, picked up by another wave and sort of washed back onto his boat so he was a very lucky man. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Unbelievable. That’s not going to happen twice, is it?

Andy Lamont: His boat was a bit damaged and broken windows and a bit of damage to one of his shrouds and he decided that digression was a better part of him and headed back to the Falkland Islands and sold his boat, which that was around March. Around that time I was listening to his story just after I spoke to you. I went, “Well, that record is still there for the taking.”  

So I sort of told my wife and she said, “Absolutely not,” because it was going to take longer but eventually she acquiesced and so I said, “Look, we can go. We can go for this record if we go in October, which was the same time. It’s a good time to go because we get through the southern ocean in the summer time.” Going towards Cape of Good Hope, which was always going to be the worst part of the journey going east bound. So we’ll do that which will be good but then we’re just going to have a really good weather window to get around Cape Horn because that’s going to be around March. 

Andy Lamont's offical documents for his world record attempt

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right and then you’d be coming across the Pacific. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and then once we get around Cape Horn, not that anything is ever going to be plain sailing but hopefully, it will be a pretty plain sailing. We’ll be able to get back home, so I guess that’s the biggest news and the biggest change, whereas before I was just going for my own personal achievement and something of an achievement of a dream that I always had and wanted to do. That’s now changed into, “Well I’m going for a world record attempt,” which brought with it a few extra issues because you have to register with the World Sailing Speed Records Council. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well and it’s quite costly too. I saw the bill and it’s in pound too, right? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, it was in pounds. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What was the cost of that? 

Andy Lamont: Well that was 1,600 pounds. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: To register to make it legitimate.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, which seems like a lot of money. If you’re running a Mocha 60, it’s probably…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, or if you live in the UK right? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, exactly.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s just your local currency. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah but when I looked into it, they do provide a fair bit for that. So they have a local commissioner here in Australia who is going to basically look after all the technical aspects of the record. So he has to be paid and they send down a black box and the black box records the journey. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh right, so they actually measure that you don’t just go out there and sail around in circles in nine months. You actually go around the world. 

Andy Lamont: I mean ever since Donald Crowhurst has tried that, they’ve done it that way after that one. So yeah, no I can’t go to the Whitsundays anymore and just sort of hang around there. Yeah, so all of that, I mean obviously all that costs money so you don’t begrudge paying it but it was an unexpected cost. But you know I’m quite happy to do it because I think well, it definitely will be the first and the fastest westbound circumnavigation. I don’t think the record that’s the fastest will stand for very long because it is an S&S 34. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well it stood this long, right? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that’s right. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It hasn’t been established. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and interesting. Westbound circumnavigations are interesting. The record for a westbound circumnavigation is held by a boat called Adrian and the guy’s name is Jean-Luc or something. I can’t pronounce the French name but he set that in an 85-foot mono hull, single-handed. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Wow, that’s a big boat single handed. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, although a lot of them are. It’s the same as Dee Caffari the first woman to do it with a 75 footer because the bigger boats are much better going to… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah and the French are very good in those single handed big and multi’s as well as the mono hulls. They’re very good at that. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah but that record, his record was set now it’s probably, I think, 2004 from memory but that’s the record for a still stand. It’s a record for crewed or un-crewed so yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Wow and how many days was it? 

Andy Lamont: Ah, now you’ve put me on the spot. If you go to my website, www.andylamont.com.au it’s there. I think it was 135. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right. Oh yeah, so that’s a pretty good average. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, I think it was so don’t quote me on that. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and so tell me about your website you’ve built. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah that was pretty amazing too because I hadn’t really done anything in the way of promoting this trip for sponsors or anything like that because I was pretty low key and then I thought about two weeks ago, I sat down and people keep asking me, “Can you send me this? Can you send me that?” And every time that someone asks me to send them a letter, I’ve got to sit down and write a letter. 

It takes me an hour and a half and then I forget everything or another one, so I thought I’ll just to see if I can build a website and I was just amazed because it’s just so easy now and so I sat down and just a few days, I had the barebones of the website there. I had all the photographs of when I was doing the boat up. So I just put those into a blog and when the blog is all done and the photographs were all there.

I was doing this website with my wife and I got really excited. I was doing it late at night and I keep waking up my wife and going, “Hey, look what I did! I put this photo here and I put a caption underneath it,” and as I was really excited to do that. So search the website. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So andylamont.com.au. 

Andy Lamont: That’s it, yeah, www.andylamont.com.au, I thought at least it would be pretty easy to remember. I thought I wouldn’t forget it. You can go in there, and then with the website, then came the funding to Go Fund Me campaign where someone said, “Look why don’t you do this Go Fund Me campaign?”

So that was really easy to set up. So I set that up and I already had enough and it really, really humbles me. I’m really appreciative of the people that had made some donations to that, which basically there’s enough donations in there already for me to buy me a Delmore Reach Me tracking device. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Great!

Andy Lamont: So those little things like five or 10 bucks or whatever, it doesn’t sound like a lot but it still adds up.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It all adds up, yeah because there’s so many cost there that just run away with you as you’re preparing to sail the trip. It’s great if you can fund the things that help you keep in touch with people, because they are interested in your story and in your journey and to be able to keep them updated of your location and how you’re tracking with stories and photos from the trip and along the way. If you can afford those extra communication devices and tools and stuff, that’s really, really cool. 

Andy Lamont: Yes, I’m really grateful for people for the interest. The money that they donate is really helpful but I guess even more than that, it’s the psychological boost that it gives you that… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Like you’ve got a team? 

Andy Lamont: “Ah, wow there’s people interested in me doing this thing,” and it gives you a good boost.  I am really happy to see that happen. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah that’s great and then you had some sponsorship come along as well which is promising. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah Southport Yacht Club has been really generous and that’s been fantastic. Ray McMahon is the guy who has proven that here at the club and they’ve got quite a few meetings. In my opinion as well, I’ll just see what happens but they’ve been really, really generous in being able to give me a great sponsorship package, which means that a lot of the things I was worried about, like getting the boat out in the water and keeping it out for a month is a big cost because you’ve got to pay your marina fees and you also have to pay your hardstand fees, so having all of that taken care off is just such a load off. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Are they going to the anti-fails for you as well? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, they would. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well make sure you put about five coats on because you’re going to need it right? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so they give me a figure, which I can use on club fees, half stand fees, and anti-foul so that would be great. Hopefully we get that, there’s a new anti-foul product out that I might be able to use at that point in time. So hopefully that will happen. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, well that’s good. That’s good, okay and what about the work that you’ve have been doing on board here and as I look around, I can see your wheel’s gone and you’ve got a really, really nice looking utility out there. What else have you been doing? 

Andy Lamont: Well, I guess that is the next big job that had to be done. The cockpit floor is made from balsa sandwich and the trouble with the balsa is once it gets damp, it does rot and so we had to replace the side decks and the foredeck and the cockpit floor. I’ve already replaced one third of it and the plan was to replace the rest of it when we pulled out the wheels steering, the wheel and pedestal. 

So pulled out the wheel and pedestal, cut out all the floor and I had a bit of fun doing that and made a new floor out of just 20 mil marine ply, fibre glassed on top of that and coved it all in and got the new tiller. I was very lucky with the tiller. I don’t know if I have told you that story before, did I? I will tell you again, it’s a good story. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Is it from WA or something? 

Andy Lamont: Oh yes, that’s right. The fitting that goes onto the rudder post, a guy from WA went into the small works yard and picked it up for me out of a bin from when they used to make S&S 34’s and they had a whole lot left so luckily there was one in there and I wanted to make the tiller here out of mahogany and silver ash. Silver ash is an Australian hardwood, which is a very blonde timber and really contrasts with the deep mahogany. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it kind of matches the Gold Coast theme as well, blonde.

Andy Lamont: Yeah and I was doing some termite work because I’ve got a pest control company, for a guy out in the Ormeau area, which is an area out in sort of the sticks a little bit around here and I noticed that he had a few boats being build. He turned out to be quite a famous boat builder and I said, “Oh, have you got any mahogany and silver ash around which I can make a tiller from?” He said, “Yeah. How are you going to make it?” And I told him how I was going to make it and he said, “Oh that’s silly, I’ve got a jig here for making tillers, you can just use that.” 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh, what are the chances? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and so anyway, so I did his termite work and I had all the drawings of how I was going to make the tiller. I rang him up about a week before I was going to come out and make the tiller and I said, “Tony, I am just going to come up and make this tiller at your workshop next week, is that all right?” And he went, “Oh no, I already made it.” 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Really, so he made you a tiller? How cool is that?

Andy Lamont: So he made it for me so I was really, really appreciative of that. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well I hope you got rid of all his termites then. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, well so do I. So yeah, so that’s great. So the tiller is there, which is great for single handed. Of course when we’re doing the crewed twilight races, the crew will be upset now because I am walking the line. I used to be behind the wheel and as anyone knows, an S&S 34. The cockpit is really about the same size as a bathtub really, isn’t it? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s right. It’s not very big and once you are behind the wheel you’re stuck there right, in the whole race?

Andy Lamont: Yeah and the tiller takes up most of the room. So now all the crew are sort of telling me I’m in the way. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So you’re bashing people’s knees now if you suddenly decide to turn suddenly. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, falling on them, sitting on their laps and all that kind of stuff. Yeah but it’s fun so that’s good. So that was a big thing. That was a big thing for me. That was probably the last major structural job that we had to do was to remove the cockpit floor, remove the pedestal, take the wheel out and replace it with the tiller. The only other thing that’s really major that we’re going to do when we take it out of the heart is we’re going to lift the boat off the keel and check all the keel bolts and take the rudder out. There’s some kind of a bit of a leak in the rudder and so we’ll just dry it out and put a new one. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well the leak will only get big not smaller, right, If you don’t do anything? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so that’s right. It’s not a big job, we’ll just cut it out, cut out half the rudder and dig out all the foam and re-core it and put fibre glass around the outside of it. That will be pretty much all the structural jobs on the boat would have been done by then and then when the boat comes out in August, we’ll take the mast out as well and we’ll just going to go right over the mast with a fine toothed comb. Anything that needs fixing, we’ll fix and that’s pretty much it. 

Now the other great news, the other thing too is that I know last time we’re talking, I was talking about these Turtle-Pac buoyancy bags. So two weeks ago, I have made the decision to actually install the Turtle-Pac system in the boat. It’s not cheap but to me, it’s something that’s just worth the peace of mind that it gives me, my family, my wife and everyone else. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s a pretty major plan B. To refresh everybody’s memory, to be able to inflate a really robust inflatable bag inside the boat that means if it gets compromised to some degree it’s going to continue to partially float at least so you can continue to live aboard while you find a solution or catch fish, or catch rain water or what have you. As opposed to having to just have a life raft as your plan B. So it’s a pretty good plan B. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. So the system itself is six 1000 litre bags. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right, so they’re still compartmentalised as well. So if you damaged one, you still got five that are intact. Is that how that works? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s all just one big chamber? 

Andy Lamont: No, it’s not one big chamber. So there are six, basically cylindrical bags and they fold up quite small. So there will be one each in either of the quarter bunks, which folds up against the hull so they don’t hardly take up any room. There will be another one that folds up just in front of the chart table there. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So you can choose where you locate them within the boat as well. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and there will be another one in the forepeak and two with the quarter burst used to be just folded against the hull and so they will be all controlled by two dive cylinders. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So you’ve got a back up cylinder as well. You’ve got two rather than just one as well. 

Andy Lamont: No there’s two we’ll take. So two will just fill all six. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You need all two to fill the six, all right. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and so what happens is if I need to, yeah and this is one of the things that I’m planning on not to use. If I had to use it I’d just open both those cylinders and those bags will fill up in 45 seconds. But, they only fill up to four pounds pressure. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so there’s no chance of popping them. 

Andy Lamont: No, they won’t pop or they will conform if there’s something on the floor or in the way. They will just go around it. But he did say that when you fill them up make sure that you stand out of the way because if you got your whole leg by one, it can pin you.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh right? Pin yourself inside a sinking boat. 

Andy Lamont: Pin yourself, yeah. So there is quite a fair bit of reserve in those 6,000 litres as well and the boat will float quite high. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Wow, because the 6,000 litres of water so six tons. So how much weight can it support? Does it literally transfer that weight? 

Andy Lamont: No, it doesn’t. Your transfer is much more than that because this is what the… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh because the boat has got partial floatation built into it anyway. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and even, so for instance you just go also you’ve got the lead. I think it’s in the S&S 34, don’t quote me, but I think there is something like about two and a half thousand kilos of lead but that doesn’t worth two and a half thousand kilos in the water. It doesn’t displace two and a half thousand. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So if it all turns to custard, you just undo your keel bolts, let your keel bolts go. The keel then goes so your boat sits even higher on the water? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, no it that might be upside down in that case. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, good point. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so the 6,000 litres is much more than this six-ton boat. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s great. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Especially if you’ve got a hull that’s just above the water line or just below the water line literally up enough for it to stay out of the water potentially. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, exactly. So I really did a lot of soul searching about it and of course with every project like this, if something gets spent on one thing it doesn’t get spent on another thing and I thought, “Look, you know to me, that’s probably the best,” about five grand it costs. “That’s about the best five grand that you can spend,” because it just means that, failing fire, we’re pretty indestructible, which is a funny story because the inventor Laszlo (not a funny story), invented this but it was a bit of a tragedy. It was a bad story really, but he had it on his boats and he invented it because he was caught in a cyclone with the boat filling up with water and he was out of the Gold Coast and his boat caught on fire of course. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: They’re not going to help you then are they? 

Andy Lamont: They’re not going to help you then. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Then irony! You’ve got a solution for sinking and then you catch fire. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so you know? I’m taking the metho stove and that’s it so pretty much the chances of us having a fire of course… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, which is good because that’s ugly if you do have a fire. 

Andy Lamont: Oh, you know there’s not much that you can do is it there? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: No, that right and it happens very quickly. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah so that was really great. That was a real sort of point of importance for me anyway to get that. It was one of those things that I have been playing with, equivocating about for about a year and a half. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Has that helped your wife and your family get their heads around the risks a little bit more knowing that that’s part of your plan? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, absolutely. Because they know, they’re not silly. They know that while it’s not risky in the same sense as a lot of other activities are, there's still a certain element of risk. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, the isolation is the biggest risk, right? It’s not what goes wrong; it’s the fact that you’re so isolated that no one can help you. 

Andy Lamont: No one can help you. So it just this does give you that level of self-reliance that if something does happen, the boat is not going to sink. You’ve got days to solve it, not minutes and so that’s the… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well and with what you’re planning on carrying. Whatever happens you might be able to repair it anyway by then if you’ve got enough time, right? 

Andy Lamont: You would be surprised if you couldn’t. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: A little bit of epoxy and a bit of wood and a few tools. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah that’s right. Eventually you would be able to go, “Okay, here’s the problem and how to fix it.” It won’t be a big issue because the problem is going to be water is getting into the boat and somehow stop it, you know? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, absolutely that’s interesting. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah so I am excited about that. What else am I excited about? Yeah and the wind vane is finished so the vane’s not on there at the moment. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: The accessory that it goes on, is it ready to go?

Andy Lamont: Yeah and it’s all there but because my stern sits out into the marina channel a little bit, I’m very nervous about someone coming behind and wiping it out. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah even in twilight racing, right? When somebody crosses the stand, on port starboard.

Andy Lamont: So it’s all there but I’ve just got it basically all the flimsy bits are, well they’re not flimsy but the fit’s a bit… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: They’re not designed to be collision proof. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, not with a 40 foot cruiser or something like that. So yeah, they’re all off it but it’s there. So that’s great. It’s ready to go and that’s another big thing, another big expense but that ability then to carry on the journey without power is just of paramount importance to it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s a big tick of the box there in term of not forcing you to end your trip early. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, exactly. So that’s good. I’ve been looking more into the Jordan Series Drogue. I’m going to put some chain plates when the boat’s out of the water down by the stern so that I will be able to attach a harness onto those chain plates. So basically if I do put out a drogue, they will just pull straight off the chain plates rather than off a winch or some kind of other thing, which is just bolted onto the deck. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s good because when you’re reading about the engineering kind of rules and the loading that goes onto your boat. You try to slow it to 1 to 2 knots in it and 70 knots of breeze, and a sea that’s trying to drive along at 12 knots, the loading is quite amazing that you’ve got to work at those points where you attach it. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so I was doing that research and I thought and they’re saying don’t attach it. I was going to basically say, “Well I’ve got this nice winches,” but the load on the winch is no good. It’s the wrong way and all that so I will run them off some chain plates of about 300 mil’s long or 250 mil’s long with about six bolts along the side of the hull just before the transom and they’re just poking out in the transom a bit and they will distribute the load into the hull. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah but that good and like all things, you hope you don’t have to use it but if you do, it’s good to know that they won’t rub the back off your boat. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, or tear a winch out or something like that. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well because technically if you’re in the line of fire as it got torn out, it will go with a bang. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah it would, yeah exactly and also then, it is actually pulling from it directly off the stern. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay and in terms of your list of all of the must haves and nice to haves, how are you getting along with deciding what’s really a must have and what you are going to be able to do and what you probably can’t do. Where are the trade offs or compromises sort of coming in now? 

Andy Lamont: Well Musto has come on as a sponsor, which was fantastic because Musto is the gear I wanted. It’s basically every piece of sailing equipment I’ve got is Musto. So the only company I approached for sailing here and luckily they were quite good about it and so they’ve come along. So all the, you know, I am getting basically all the HPX gear, the dry suit and all the mid layer stuff and everything from Musto basically. So that’s a lot of the must have stuff that as you know is really…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s a big chunk of cost but value for money; it’s priceless, right? But you can’t not have it, but it’s not… 

Andy Lamont: Yeah you can’t not have it. Yeah and so I’m just really grateful to Musto that they’re willing to support me on that and like truly if they said, “Look, we’ll give you a 10% discount,” I would been happy with that of course, but they are really generous and so that was great. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s good. It’s good the support.

Andy Lamont: I shouldn’t say that, they might… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s too late now it’s in the bank, right? The bank is dry. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. So I am really happy with Musto and that’s great. So that’s one big ticket that is out of the way. I am talking with someone else about supplying radar and a radar screen so hopefully they will come through. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s good.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. But we’re just talking at the moment and some of the other big must have tickets, so pretty much pulling the mast down and doing the mast is something I’ve arranged for anyway. A satellite phone is, that’s one thing that hasn’t been bought yet, HF radio is a sort of thing that, again, really expensive. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah especially with the limitations it has. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah but then it does things that only an HF radio can do. So it’s not really a must have for me personally but then a lot of people I speak say, “Oh no, an HF radio is a must have because you can broadcast.” A satellite phone is great but you can’t broadcast with a satellite phone.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah of course.

Andy Lamont: so it would be really good to get an HF radio. Some of the other things, one of the musts was to just lift the boat off the keel and check the keel bolts and Southport Yacht Club obviously will come to the party with the hard stand and the travel lift, which means that it’s going to be nice and easy to just lift the boat up and check the keel box. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Which is great, Another big chunk of cost that you don’t have to incur. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah exactly. So most of my must haves now are, like they’re getting close to being covered. There’s a lot of things in the list that they sort of, they are must have but the boat is a good boat and if I had to go tomorrow, I’ve got it basically but will probably want a HF radio and a satellite phone but apart from that it’s a good little boat. So we’re pretty ready in that sense. I’ve got some Go Pros to take some footage so hopefully there will be some interesting footage of it. Yeah, we’ll see how that goes. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Have you thought about finding a media sponsor who would pay data for you so that you can access data for uploading content and videos and updating your blog so that they could benefit from the published story updates, but you benefit from not having to pay for the big thing, they put on the back of your boat and the cost of the data itself?

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so yeah I’ve looked at just basically having a satellite hub and the data is still pretty expensive. So yeah I haven’t really looked. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Because Jessica Watson had that data sponsor, which is what allowed her to do the blog updates and the video uploads. She had a media sponsor because of course, they can get her to write stories every so often and you know of news limited only to the Gold Coast Bulletin and you kind of wonder if that would be a possibility, right? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, well I got to speak to Jess the other day through you actually, which was great and then I sent her another e-mail and so that might be something that I’ll talk to her about. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah because you could get steered into the right direction. I don’t want to cost it out now but I’m sure it runs into the tens of thousands for data still. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, I mean the funning thing is voice is cheap. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, well it is that’s right. As soon as you start uploading gigabytes of bloody video, or hundreds of megabytes, that’s where it chews through it, right? And probably photos to some degree as well. But you probably could publish content quite cheaply. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that’s probably one of the next things I’ll look at is if I can get someone, a supplier of data. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, well now that it’s a world record attempt. 

Andy Lamont: Yes, that’s right. It’s gathering it’s own momentum. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s right and then you can put that kind of stake in the ground, that might make that a little bit different. 

Andy Lamont: Well that’s right. I mean it wasn’t my original intention but I’m quite excited about it now because there are people that have sailed around the world and you can’t take anything away from them because what they’ve done is amazing by itself but to go down as the first person to do the official world record around the world west bound circumnavigation, there is only ever one first.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s right. That exactly right so you should leverage it for all you can. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah so, we’ll we will try. We are doing it right now. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s right. Exactly right. So if anybody knows of anybody or has an interest in sponsorship, then don’t hesitate to contact Andy directly. And your contact details will be at your website, at Andylamont.com.au. 

Andy Lamont: That’s right. That’s it, Andylamont.com.au. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So don’t hesitate to pass any suggestions onto Andy or anybody you might know that would be interested in sponsorship wise or support wise, contact Andy directly because he’d certainly love to hear from you. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that’s right and I really would because the thing has really changed in the last three months or two months from our little personal sort of goal for me and thinking, “Well I’m not going to be the first of anything or anything,” so I didn’t think there’d that much interest to be in the first west bound. So it hasn’t changed it a lot. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s great and now so you got the chance to have a little bit of a chat to Jessica Watson a couple of weeks ago? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, she is great. It was really interesting to talk to her. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What sort of takeaways did you have out of that in terms of some of the questions? Some of the technical questions you had that around your preparations. 

Andy Lamont: Well I guess probably one of the things that I immediately got out of that was that while I was thinking about getting one brand of wind generator, which was the most expensive and then talking to her realising that even she had that and that didn’t even last the whole distance anyway. So a couple of days later, I went to the boat shop here and I picked up two really good wind generators, but for the same price as one over the other ones.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh, so you’ve got a plan A and a plan B. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah so knowing that look, if one makes it half way around the world and dies, then that’s to be expected and I’ve got the other one and even if you get the most expensive one, you’re not going to expect to make it all the way with that. So yeah, that saved me to get two of those. That’s three and a half grand each, that’s seven grand and I’ve got two of the other brand which I could say is Rutland, so I got a Rutland 1200 and Rutland 914 and they did me a deal to get two together so that was three grand so that saved me like four grand. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, right. So would you run two at the same time? 

Andy Lamont: No, I’ll run one and then I’ll just keep one boxed up and if something happens to the Rutland 1200, I have another pole. So I’m getting Phil George from Fleming Marine who made Jessica’s targa and mast for the wind generators and I’m getting him to make those for me as well because he’s actually got an S&S 34 down there that he’s doing up at the moment. 

So he can actually build the whole thing on his boat and then just post it up to me or send it up to me and that’ll have two masts so they’ll both be wired up but one will be just in a box and if the first one ends up dying for some reason, I will just leave it up there if I have to and put the next one of the spare mast. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: On the opposite side or something? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah right. That’s good and are you going to take your extra blades as well? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, I’ll take extra blades. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Because they can snap. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah so there’re only plastic boats, they’re not carbon blades these ones so the blade is not a big expense. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, what do you pay for a set of blades, do you know? 

Andy Lamont: I don’t know, I do know the guy told, “Oh yeah, you’ve got to get your blades.”

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, because the reason I ask is because I’ve got an Aerogen 6 I think it is and I chipped some blades and I found the Australian distributor and it was going to be like $630 for six plastic blades and then so I thought, “They’re only plastic.” So I Googled it and I found this UK website, they were selling them for 118 pounds for a set and so I could land them in Australia where the currency conversion and with freight for I don’t know? $240 or something. 

Which is still going to be less than half so just the reason that I ask is it’s amazing the loading that goes into some of the spare parts if they’re offshore, northern hemisphere type products. Don’t be afraid to use Google. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, I know. That’s right but Rutland is a nice well-known brand. They’ve got plenty of parts in there. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well, that’s good. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so that’s right. So we’ll take spare blades for that, takes spare vanes for the self-steering gear, all of that is taken care of. But yeah, so that is one thing that was really good to get from Jessica. It saved me $4,000. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh that’s great.

Andy Lamont: In a five minute conversation and she said she’s welcome to talk to me, or willing to talk to me about some other things as well, food and things like that which we will be setting up soon. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh that’s great and all that advice from somebody who has done it already, just it probably simplifies a whole bunch of stuff too that sometimes you overcomplicate in your planning that for whatever reason they don’t use or didn’t need. 

Andy Lamont: It’s amazing how sometimes you can just talk to someone. For instance with wind vanes, I’ve been thinking about wind vanes for more than 18 months but I had that conversation with her and just went, “Right. Okay, that’s what I’m going to do.” So it crystallised my thoughts so it was great. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah because there is lots of contradictory advice out there and everyone has different experiences but yeah, being able to get advice with somebody who’s done a similar trip with a similar boat that doesn’t get any more crystal clear than that.

Andy Lamont: Yeah exactly so that was good. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s good and I’m glad that you could hook up and that she’s happy to provide ongoing feedback and advice because it all helps especially if it’s money that you don’t have to spend that you would have spent just in case and then you find out that you just don’t need to spend it at all. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, exactly and that’s a lot of money you know and it is. It’s $4,000 I saved there that really basically I went $4,000 saved on that, $5,000 for the buoyancy bags, done. That’s how it all worked so yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s good. Well that’s right even if the advice doesn’t raise sponsorship, if it cuts your costs down, it’s the same outcome right? Because a dollar you don’t have to speed, is a dollar you don’t have to raise somewhere. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah exactly, that’s so true. Yeah, that’s good.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And have you settle on sail configuration or sail plans? 

Andy Lamont: Yes. I haven’t actually ordered a code zero yet and that’s not a must have, that’s a “would love to have”. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s a “I’ll get home sooner” type item. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and that’s one of the things Jessica said. She said that if she were doing it again, she would have used the code zero more. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well, you are more likely to fend your world record for longer too if you used the code zero right? You could just get it a few days earlier. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that’s right. I haven’t ordered it yet but it is just sort of one of those things that I’d love to have. I’d love to have that more than an HF radio.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well maybe you might be able to find a sail sponsor. That would be good. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that would be good too and Neil Pryde was really good to me, he helped me out with the sails that I’ve got now but of course, the Australian dollar’s tanked since then.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s right and substantially. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so it’s sort of getting sails out of Hong Kong is not as good as it used to be. So Mike Sabin from Gold Coast Sails may be a nice little 100% jib. So I am looking now and we’ll see. Like I said, I’d much rather have a code zero than an HF radio but I think I have to buy the HF radio before the code zero. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, right. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so anyway that’s about it and what else has been happening? I’m just about drawing a blank here now. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And so you’re still settled on October? That’s all fairing out? You’ve got a specific date yet? 

Andy Lamont: October the 2nd. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: October 2nd, great. 

Andy Lamont: Which hopefully, my daughter, Sophie, is due on the 14th of September. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, well she won’t run more than two weeks overdue. 

Andy Lamont: But they said she can run two weeks early or two weeks overdue.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: But at two weeks, she’ll be induce, right? So two and a half weeks you should be good to go right? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, exactly. So that’s right. I would say, “Look, you know, 15th of October, come on let’s do it.” So yeah, that will be great. So as soon as, you know, I can’t leave before the baby is born but you’re right, they will induce it if it’s more than two weeks overdue, I think. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. 

Andy Lamont: So the second of October, which will be a Sunday, I’ll head out of here on a Sunday about 1 o’clock. I got a little widget on my website. I think there’s 115 days to go. That will be on a Sunday so that’d be good. I can’t wait really. It’s getting really close now. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well, it’s like less than three months now, right? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. Well it’s 115 days. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You’ll be pleased to know that you haven’t chosen a weekend where there’s offshore sailing so we’ll be able to see you off because we won’t be out there offshore. And it’s actually the revised Queen’s birthday weekend this year. 

Andy Lamont: Oh is it? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Perfect for people visiting you because there’s an extra day off. 

Andy Lamont: Oh okay, well that’s fantastic. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Because, you know, they moved it from June to October. 

Andy Lamont: Right. Just in Queensland, or? 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Just in Queensland, just to do something crazy they just moved the Queen’s birthday back to confuse everybody for three months back. I always jot it down and I’ve got the sailing calendar in there for the next 12 months. So that day is clear. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, it’s good. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh, it’s good. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah so that will be good. So hopefully we will have good breezes then around October, have a nice northerly and we’ll just head down and have a nice summer time breezes all through Bass Strait. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, well that’s right. It’s a much warmer time of the year right? The way you are planning it it’s actually a nice time of the year to go through there. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. It’s much nicer at the start and really hopefully, the only part that’s really sort of playing on my nerves a bit is finding a window to get around Cape Horn because the big difference of west bound compared to east bound is that you can get to Cape Horn on the east bound circumnavigation and say it’s really bad. Well, you could just throw that Jordan Series Drogue out the back and just blow through really. Like I mean it wouldn’t be pleasant but eventually…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You will get swept around there with the current kind of thing. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, you will get swept around there with the current and the wind and everything like that whereas if you have to turn around and float a drogue, which is what happened to Bill, you just go back into it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Backwards really fast and then you’ve got to start all over again. 

Andy Lamont: Then you start all over again because sometimes systems come through one, two, three, four straight after each other; you might go back in and actually get hit by another system. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So you could realistically have to have two or three or four goes at it in the worst case scenario, which is pretty daunting. 

Andy Lamont: Yes, so the thing is really is to pick a weather window and just go for it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And then gun it with that code zero. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It might come in handy. 

Andy Lamont: It might, and even if it does get like even if it does get a bit dirty, you just keep trying to punch through because…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah because the alternative is going to mean you’ve just got to punch through all over again which there’s nothing worse.

Andy Lamont: Yeah so this is a good little boat to do it in, so it goes to wind well and it’s nice and soft and a light sail. That’s what I am saying anyway. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s good Andy. And I see you’ve still got those lovely bolts coming through your cabin top there. You haven’t quite figured out all the final uses for those before your…

Andy Lamont: Yeah. No, I’m pretty sanguine about those; we’ll cut them off. It’ll take me like five minutes with the grinder but I haven’t made the netting yet. So when I get the netting made then I’ll know what the attachment points are for them. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah then it will become logical. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, I mean I could just leave every third one which would still probably be all right but I’ll just leave it for a little while longer. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s where the world is going because I read some changes to Cat 1 Regulations for these alum boats. You’ve got to be able to roll the boat upside down and have nothing fall out, nothing come loose, no floor boards, no nothing. So I’m not sure if that’s the direction for Australian Cat 1, but that’s the regulations this year coming so you will be ahead of the curve if you have got netting that covers all the stuff. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It makes sense, right? 

Andy Lamont: You just don’t want anything…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Hitting you on the head and cutting your eye open. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. So that’s right. So that’s what we’re going to do before we go. It’s basically turning the boat upside down mentally. I mean what they do, turn them upside — they don’t do that.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: No. I don’t know, but I doubt it. But all your bed boards, all your floor boards like everything has to be able to stay intact and contained if you tilt the boat 180, which makes sense. It’s just if your boat’s not fitted that way, it’s quite a bit of work and costs in doing that but it makes sense. 

Andy Lamont: I know and I mean if you’ve got to pull up a floor board quickly, it is a bit of a pain if you… 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s where you need the right sort of latches right because you don’t want to have to screw them down because you won’t be able to gather a screwdriver, knee deep in water trying to the boards up. 

Andy Lamont: No, that’s right, yeah. I mean it won’t be hard. This boat has only got one floor board so it’s nice and easy to put that down.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That helps.

Andy Lamont: But that’s the whole, the exercise on what you're going to go through and have been going through and that’s why I haven’t cut those bolts is because I just want it to be basically everything bolted down and what’s not bolted down, contained. You do see pictures of boats that have been knocked down and stuff everywhere. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And injuries to people.

Andy Lamont: And injuries to people.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: A can of something hits you in the head it’s going to hurt.

Andy Lamont: Knock you out.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, or a floor board will break your ribs. So that makes a lot of sense. 

Andy Lamont: And like I know it’s going to happen. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s just a matter of if. 

Andy Lamont: It’s just I know and so I just want to make sure that if I get knocked down, there might be a little bit of water that come in but it’ll just a matter of like pumping it out and keeping on going. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well if you pad your ceiling it’d just be like a kid’s playground won’t it? You will just be rolling around inside and it will be soft. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, I know and I am thinking about doing it with that foam. It’s probably not a bad idea. That’s kind of like I’d like to have. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Then you’re bullet proof then really. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah and it will give a bit of insulation as well. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah which will help in winter if you don’t have to wear so much gear all the time. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, exactly. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Especially going to the toilet and stuff, to take that gear on and off all the time. So tell me how’s everything unfolding at home? How’s your wife feeling about the trip now that time’s marching on and she probably realises you are totally serious and committed? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, it’s kind of funny because we’re doing things now and they’re things in preparation for me not to actually get ready to leave but to actually leave, so it’s becoming a lot more real for all my family. So that’s a bit of a process we’re going through but in a lot of ways because we haven’t been spent more than two weeks apart in 25 years. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s quite staggering when you think about what lies ahead there. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so I’m sure like I said before, I’ll probably miss her more than she misses me but in lead up to it, she’s the one that’s more vocal about missing me and so we’ve got a good satellite. The satellite plans are great so I will be able to talk to her on the phone nearly every day. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: They’re pretty cost effective aren’t they? 

Andy Lamont: Yeah I think it’s 40 cents a minute.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s good. Wow, that’s really good. 

Andy Lamont: You pay $100 plan and you get 40 cents a minute. 

OSP: Yeah, right with bulk. Because I pay a lower level plan just for the odd Cat 2 race which is I think we sit at 99 cents a minute but yeah, if you can go, especially if you’re going to buy a year’s worth or something. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, you go on $100 plan and it’s 40 cents a minute. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Cool. 

Andy Lamont: It seems if you can get voice that cheap it just seems amazing that data is so expensive but that might just change it. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, I think that’s just the lack of supply, it means prices can stay high, unlimited supply is a whole lot better. It will change right? It’s just a matter of time because that’s right, because once that changes, you could just live at sea, work at sea, couldn’t you? If your business is online and then you can do it online. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, you could. Anyways, so they’re going along. Each time it’s getting closer everyone is getting used to it. Doing that website was kind of a big “aha” wake up moment for all the family. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s like you’ve told the world now and they can all see it. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, exactly. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well if you are pregnant, you’d be the last trimester, right? The last three months but your baby is not arriving, it’s leaving? 

Andy Lamont: But I’ve got a big bump. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s right, the bump in your wall is getting smaller. 

Andy Lamont: That’s right, yeah so that’s good. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well that’s great. It was good to catch up, good to check on how things are tracking along. It sounds like you’re well advanced now in the final three months. 

Andy Lamont: Yep, that’s it and so as the boat comes down in August, it will be out of the water for a month and then it’ll be back in the water and basically we’ll be off after that. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Which is great. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And today we’re down at the Southport Yacht Club and we’re onboard Impulse and we’re officially nine days into winter. It’s 28 degrees outside so for our American listeners, that’s 80 something degrees Fahrenheit, which is kind of crazy thinking it’s winter and then we’re about to go twilight sailing. 

Andy Lamont: In a sea breeze. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: In a sea breeze, yeah. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah which is a summer time breeze for over here. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s bizarre but it’s good. 

Andy Lamont: So that should be good. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s great. Well thanks Andy for getting together again for a catch up and we’ll try check in with you again maybe in six weeks’ time as you get to about six weeks out and see how you’re tracking with this along the home straight for departure. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that would be great. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And I’ll make sure in the show notes that we put the links to your website as well and any updated photos I’ll put as well, any updates and bits and pieces but you gave me heaps last time. So, we went to the original ones too for those that haven’t looked at them yet. In the show notes folks from the episode with Andy in episode two and three, there’s lots and lots of photos of impulse and all the work that he has done to date. So don’t hesitate to check out those show notes as well as the ones with this episode. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, fantastic and anyone that wants to contact me and give me some advice or tell me an idiot, you’re welcome. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Any advice, any feedback, any support, any suggestions of people or companies that might want to support Andy go to Andylamont.com.au and he will appreciate any bit of help, advice, or contact at all. 

Andy Lamont: Great. All right, well thanks a lot David. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, thanks Andy. Let’s go racing. 

Andy Lamont: Let’s go sailing. 

Interviewer: David Hows

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Episode 10: Jessica Watson Show Notes

Thank you to the Queensland Cruising Yacht Club for hosting us for the interview.

Find out more about Jessica's new venture at Deckee.com

Deckee.com is proving to be a hit for yachties looking for advice on products, services and marinas

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Hi Folks, welcome onto the Ocean Sailing Podcast. This week we are at the Queensland Cruising Yacht Club and we are talking to Jessica Watson. So welcome along Jess.

Jessica Watson: Hello and thanks for having me.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Jess, happy birthday for yesterday. I understand it was your birthday and ironically, as part of researching questions for today, it's just gone past your six year anniversary since you completed your circumnavigation?

Jessica Watson: It has, which is a bit scary. Six years feels like a while, a lot has happened.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Has it gone fast or have you just packed a lot into the last six years?

Jessica Watson: It kind of feels like a couple of lifetimes ago which sounds ridiculous for a 23 year old to be saying that but it really does. I mean there’s so many things that have happened and it’s too much to keep up with, and it feels like another world.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well in six years, when you, given you were 17, almost 17 when you completed the trip, six years as a percentage of your life. You’ve had like another third of your life almost.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, well that’s a good way of putting it and that’s kind of how I feel.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and I read in your Wikipedia profile that your nationality’s described as an Australian New Zealander. I hadn’t heard of that nationality before. Is that how you see yourself?

Jessica Watson: No, that’s the problem Wikipedia, don’t believe everything you read on it. I mean it is true to some extent but I wouldn’t call myself a Kiwi, sorry grandparents. Sorry Grandad particularly, he’d be a bit upset about that but Mum and Dad come from New Zealand originally, all my family are over there but I do see myself as an Aussie through and through. Sorry to the Kiwis. Love the place, great sailors but I’m definitely an Aussie.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s a lot warmer here, right?

Jessica Watson: It is, yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so today I wanted to talk to you and touch on a few points and ask you a few questions about your circumnavigation. I want to talk to you a bit about life after the trip, which has obviously been a big chunk of your life really and then we’ll talk a bit about your new project that you’re working right now, Deckee, and how that came about. Then we’re going to give Andy Lamont a bit of a surprise call and talk to him. He’s got some questions for you about his upcoming westward bound trip around the world in an S & S 34 called Impulse.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, I’m looking forward to that, I’d love to hear his questions and have a chat to him.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. So I guess jumping back to your circumnavigation and just some questions around that. It appeared on reading your story along the way and afterwards in depth, that something that started out as an idea when you were a little bit younger, turned into quite a serious, well-planned, well thought out project that really gathered significant momentum in terms of the people and the sponsors and supporters that got behind it.

I guess my question for you is, were there moments as the departure date approached, where you suddenly had the flashes of panic, or you got cold feet, or you thought, “I don’t want to do this anymore but I’ve come too far, I’ve got too many people behind it?”

Jessica Watson: No, not at all. And I’m glad about that because that would have been a pretty scary position to be in. I think when I first started thinking about it I realised from doing that first bit of research, I was young. I was 13 by the time I had sort of made up my mind about it fully. So it was before then that I had been thinking about it for a while and I realised how much was involved and I always sort of knew from, even right form then that if I was going to do this, it had to be done properly.

It wasn’t going to be a matter of getting a cheap boat and throwing together a few bits of equipment, and a satellite phone and leaving. If I was going to do it, it had to be in the safest way possible and that meant a lot of money, and a lot of sponsorship and an incredible amount of support that did snowball.

First it was the local sail maker and rigger who were amazing and then it just snowballed into something bigger. I’m very happy that I didn’t have cold feet at the last minute because, as you said, there was a lot behind it at that point. I was just probably the exact opposite, I was just itching to go the whole time and that was actually probably the harder part was to actually slow down and go, “No, I need to do this last part of the preparation properly,” rather than just wanting to get out there so badly.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and so I guess then by the time you left, you were so well prepared and well-travelled, and you had done so many thousands of sailing hours. By that point you were just comfortable and ready to go?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you can always do more, particularly solo in that boat. I would love to have done more of that but it wasn’t sort of possible with having to be 16 and have your boat license. It might have been an issue around sort of legally being able to skipper a boat by myself. It just came down to time and the seasons. But we did decide that I’d sail through the pacific first so that also gave me the first few months in a much better part of the world if any issues did come up with the boat, which we weren’t expecting.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You were headed in a warmer direction to start with rather than in a colder direction.

Jessica Watson: Yeah exactly and just less terrible bit of ocean to give the boat a good run in.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and I read a comment, I’m not sure if it was a quote of yours, but it was along the lines of, “My mom and dad are quite timid when it comes to sailing and they just wouldn’t go out on a rough day but it became my norm.” I just kind of wondered have you always had that kind of gutsy, give it a go kind of attitude?

Jessica Watson: No, not at all. I think maybe it came from mum and dad who, you know, enjoyed boating and a little bit of sailing but really aren’t sailors at all. I was very, very scared and timid when I first started sailing and as a young girl and it was only few years later that I decided I wanted to sail around the world. So I kind of did a back with, I realised that if I was going to sail around the world I’d actually have to toughen up a little bit and yeah, pretending helped to start with.

But I think my approach was quite typical of I think a lot of adventurers rather than maybe sort of your typical kind of adrenaline junkie kind of idea of adventurer. My approach was kind of going back and looking at what could go wrong and that’s kind of the path that fascinated me more than the sort of adrenaline huge waves. I’ve always been interested in that but it was more about what can we do to make this safer? Which seems a bit boring but that’s the part that really fascinated me.

Jessica and her Deckee.com business partners

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I guess reading about some of the extremes going around Cape Horn and across the Great Australian Bight, you had to endure 10 to 12 meter seas, which most people can’t appreciate that sort of three to four story building in terms of height and winds of up to 70 knots and several knock downs. How would you describe to someone who has never sailed in rough whether what it’s like as a 16 year old on your own to out on the ocean and in the dark and those kind of conditions, how would you describe that?

Jessica Watson: Not easy to describe. I suppose the first thing is, I sort of say that not to just totally down play what the conditions are like but we were expecting, I was expecting conditions like that and the boat was built for those conditions in the end and that gave me a lot of confidence.

If you put me out in those conditions in any old boat, I would be utterly terrified but because I knew I had absolutely every chance and we’d prepared to actually deal with these conditions that gave me a lot of confidence. It’s incredible. They’re beautiful, the huge waves. It’s just not something you see, it’s just absolutely awe inspiring, obviously a little bit of terror comes into that as well.

You know, there are and there were particularly few hours in the Atlantic that were pretty horrible because I’d had a really horrendous knockdown where you’re thrown into the trough of the next waves upside down and just not knowing how the boat could possibly be structurally sound after that and I was sort of sitting there going, “If we get another wave like that, surely we can’t survive.” And pleasant surprise, I realised that the boat was actually still okay and it was my mind more than anything just getting away from me.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: With that, I guess one of the bigger risks for you was probably injuring yourself in the process rather than injuring the boat and the risk of breaking ribs and bones and skull fractures. How did you sort of manage your own safety in those types of extreme conditions?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, that was something to be very aware of, you’re completely by yourself, days or even weeks away from help. So really it kind of came down to the way I sailed, there was just no risks taken, I’m very proud of the fact I never left the cockpit in over 30 knots of wind. I think it was once where I went forward, not even on the foredeck, and that’s pretty kind of crazy really to think that you can sail around, the whole way around the world without leaving the cockpit in over 30 knots of wind. 

So I had my storm jib up when the storm would approach and I’d just reef down from the cockpit and fill away the last bit of head sail. So, very conservative and that was my approach to the way I did anything. There were lot of days when I was sailing a lot slower than I could have but again, I just didn’t like being cold and wet but also potentially hurting myself. I had little lap belts for storms where I’d sort of sit down and belt myself in to not be thrown around. Inevitably the worst knockdown happened when I wasn’t buckled in.

I remember walking up the walls onto the roof and you get pretty bruised up in a storm like that but I didn’t have any severe injuries at all. We did coat the inside of the boat with foam, probably as much for insulation but also kind of going, “Maybe it’ll help?” The great thing about an S & S 34 is that it’s quite small in the cabin. You go to see in a modern racing boat or even a modern cruising boat and it’s quite terrifying moving around down below because it’s this beautiful wide interior. It has the potential to be thrown 10 feet across the…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s a long way you can travel before you hit something.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, exactly. So a nice small S & S 34 was a bit of a security there as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. Now, I have to ask, I was texted this morning by my daughter Madison who is 16 and has been doing a bit of off shore sailing with us now, a bit of racing. She’s reading your book at the moment and she just texted me and she’s like, “Dad, I hope it’s not too late, but I have a couple of questions,” and we’ve already asked one but the other one was, she said, “Did you ever feel that you had under estimated the scale and the enormity of the journey and the trip compared to how it unfolded for you?”

Jessica Watson: I can probably honestly say no. In those hours and those moments when you’re actually seeing those waves, you know I spent so long imagining them and trying to work out what they would be like and it’s still, you just can’t really imagine. But overall, I’m really quite proud of the fact that I had a lot of fun out there and that sounds a bit ridiculous but before I left was so hard and even that whole incident where I hit that ship which, you know, you look back and it did happened for a reason. As unpleasant as it was, I think all of that really did sort of toughen me up and I got out of there and I actually was tough. I’m told I do downplay it, but I had fun and I’m proud of that, I enjoyed it as well as having those tough times

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So did you find that any sort of fears around some of the more extreme whether just sort of eventually fell away and you were more in awe of the wonder of the forces of nature and just the natural beauty of it. Even though you can have the roughest, most crazy weather out there. The most I’ve been in is maybe 45 knots and six meters. That got to a point quite quickly where you realise the boat’s going to be okay and it’s just the awe of what’s happening around you. Did you get to that stage or did you still feel this sort of unnerving sort of, “Are we going to be okay? Can it handle everything that’s ahead?”

Jessica Watson: Yeah, after that storm in the Atlantic, I had a big sense of, “Wow, the boat coped with that. It’s still okay. Oh my gosh, if it can survive that, it can survive anything.” And that was a wonderful thing to experience and have that knowledge that it’s a really, really tough boat. But then coming back towards Australia, I sort of got a period where there was storm after storm after storm, and getting a bit closer to land again that was pretty unnerving again. 

You start throwing land into the mix, things get pretty scary. Sea room is an incredible thing. Most people still have this idea they want to run for shore and be near shore and it’s to me, as a solo sailor, it’s just the last thing you want to be near when you’re in bad weather. So that was hard and that was a healthy reminder again of how you never want to forget that as much as it’s incredible, it’s important to remember.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s quite amazing when it’s just you on the ocean and you’re on your own little circle of the planet and there’s just clear water in every direction to the horizon, it’s just you and the ocean, there’s no traffic around, it’s a lot safer and it’s quite magnificent.

Jessica Watson: Obviously ships never gave me a lot of confidence having them around me and yeah, there’s something very special about an empty horizon in every direction and I don’t think many people understand that but it is an incredibly and, of course it’s lovely to share experiences with people and racing, but there’s also something very special about having it entirely to yourself.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Tell me about your sleeping patterns once you set out onto the voyage, you hear about solo sailors being up for 20 minutes and down for 20 minutes and that sounds quite arduous if you’re going to have to do that for 10 days. So what sort of patterns did you settle into once you got established on the journey?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, it got better throughout the voyage. It started out across the Pacific where you do have more islands and more shipping where I would be doing sort of 20 minute cat naps, 40 minutes and then the advice we sort of have got in all the research we did sort of pointed towards “you really need to get a 90 minute sleep cycle in every 24 hours.” And I was getting in a couple of them. It sounds incredibly harsh, I think people just hear that and go, “Oh my goodness, how do you do that?”

Jessica Watson learning to sail when she was younger

You get used to it, it’s the first few days that are often very tough. The first three days typically and it’s a shame that most people are only ever at sea for three days because it’s wonderful after that once you’ve found your legs and you’re in a new sleeping pattern and I would get a lot of my best sleep in the morning, after the sun had kind of risen and you’d be able to relax just that little bit more. Then when I got further south, there’s a lot less down there in the southern ocean so I would be sleeping for 90 minutes at a time and then waking up quickly checking things and going back to sleep, it’s a lot better.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: In terms of collision avoidance at sea, did you use radar, AIS? And what sort of range alarms did you set? 

Jessica Watson: AIS, it’s just fantastic. I mean the radar is great but it chews through a lot of power and even just the alarms I don’t think are really, you know, when you're out in the middle of the ocean, really it’s just big ships or ocean going vessels that you're dealing with. So they are on the AIS, which is fantastic and the alarms that you can setup were just fantastic. 

Obviously once I was well out to sea you’d just, well anytime actually. By myself when I’d ever be thinking about sleeping, you’d have it just the furthest setting and if anything comes on to the screen at all which could be a quite a number of miles away depending on the conditions for the radio, and that would wake me up with a very, very loud alarm. My alarm was incredibly loud. The AIS was something we changed, I had a couple of them after the collision and one of the reasons for the collision was the fact that the AIS hadn’t gone off as it should have.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah right. So the great thing about AIS is especially in bad weather when you can see a vessel 90 minutes away, not just a few minutes away, how amazing that is in terms of being safe and confident at night in the dark, in really adverse conditions. Especially being able to understand the closest point of approach and how long that’s going to take you before you’re at that point, instead of trying to guess in the dark which side of your boat the vessel is going to pass, whether you’re on a collision course. It’s amazing how deceptive lights in the dark is and being able to judge depth and those sorts of things.

Jessica Watson: Without a doubt. You don’t have to sit there on deck for the hour it takes to pass and better still, there are a couple occasions when a ship would look like it was going to be a little bit close and I would literally call them up on the radio and go, “Hey, it’s looking a little close, hint, hint, do you want to get out of my way? Give me a bit more room so I don’t have to go out in the cold and jive?” A couple of times I talked them into it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s pretty good.

Jessica Watson: I think they were just so shocked from hearing this little girl’s voice on the radio that they’re going, “What’s going on here?”

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so let’s jump to the conclusion of your trip on May the 15th, 2010. You stepped ashore in front of 70,000 people. Did you do anything to prepare for that great down to earth speech that you gave in that moment or did you just sort of step ashore and just wing it?

Jessica Watson: No, I mean I knew. I think everyone had told me what I should expect and I’m glad about that because it might have been a bit too overwhelming if I had just stepped off and been hit with that. The most incredible thing was that the couple of days before because I was running, well not a bit early but everyone sort of wanted to set a date. Even all my New Zealand relatives and all the people that supported me wanted to be there. I was at that point, if I wanted to come in I would have just come straight in but I was very happy to sort of hang out and wait a couple of days, just slow ride down. 

And those couple of days were just the most amazing thing because I was able to sort of let it sink in and get my head together and then be ready for the day I got in. It was just overwhelming. I’m sure anyone who has been at sea knows that feeling of returning to a port and everything feels so close and you’ve had empty horizons and just seen, you know, I only saw land three or four times the entire time. It’s pretty boring and everything feels overwhelmingly close and intense. Every smell and every sight is just a lot more intense than it normally is.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: How challenging was it readjusting to life on the land, getting back into a schedule and having people all around you again?

Jessica Watson: Oh it was all just, I think I was riding a wave of adrenaline for a couple of years, I’m not exaggerating. It was incredible. I think a lot of people worried about how I might adjust but because there was just so many positive things happening, and I was a little bit strange and had a bad case of the sea legs. I think I used to never talk to people looking at their face and some silly little habits that I gained like that, just from being by yourself for so long.

But honestly, it was all so exciting and new because you’re doing these things you haven’t done, even the smallest things were a novelty. Just being able to go for a walk, which was still something I was enjoying months after.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What doors have opened since May, 2010 as you entered the next chapter of your life that have really surprised you, that you didn’t see coming?

Jessica Watson: Look, there are so many things. One of the wonderful things was being able to go and actually do a bit of traveling afterwards. I’d sailed around the world but I hadn’t seen a lot of it. So whether that was sort of booked tours in all sorts of parts of the world and boat shows in Brazil and Europe and actually being able to do a bit of sailing in the Mini’s over in France. I really loved that.

I was sort of thinking whether I’d go down that competitive path for a while, and the Youth Sydney Hobart project we did is something I’m really proud of. That was a big project, it took a while, a lot of effort and energy went into that and really proud of the result. It taught me a huge amount sailing wise but much more than that as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: In terms of people management, leadership, and some of the skills like that?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, and we had the opportunity to work with some really amazing mentors and partners. Deloitte was one of our sponsors and they put us through some of their sort of leadership and team, very corporate style training and team work programs. That was really amazing to apply that to basically a bunch of teenagers on a yacht for sailing.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I read about your role with the United Nations and your trip to Jordan and Lebanon where you met with Syrian refugees. Do you want to tell me about that?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, I mean obviously, the wonderful thing is that I’ve had the opportunity to support a lot of different organisations in the last few years and this is one that sort of has become a bit more of a long term role rather than a sort of once off. I have been over to Laos and to see the sort of school feeding programs over there and then, recently last year to Jordan and Lebanon. 

I mean they’re just an incredible organisation on a global scale and things like particularly with Laos. It was issues that are in our back yard and hunger and I think I’m just, you meet the families and the kids and they’re very inspiring. But I’m normally more inspired by the workers and what goes into, you know it’s not as simple as just dumping some food. So quite extraordinary and I’m just so lucky to have had those experiences. It’s again, changed me and taught me so much.

Ella's Pink Lady, an image that became famous across every household in Australia

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well it must be a pretty amazing perspective you have of the world now that you’ve had the opportunity to see it from so many different angles?

Jessica Watson: Yeah. Yeah definitely, very lucky to have had that and the funny thing is you think I sort of expected to walk away very upset from the refugee camps. But I actually walked away so inspired because I met some people who were making the best out of these situations. You come back here and my big sort of feeling was that we need to make the most of what we’ve got here and not waste it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s interesting, there’s a documentary called The Happiness Project, which is about where the happiest nations are in the world and interestingly, some of the African nations rank the highest because to gap between the expectations and how they actually live is nil.

Jessica Watson: Yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: As opposed to many of the western nations where there’s lots of unhappiness because the gap between where they are today and their high ideals is vast. So it’s interesting when you talk about people being happy with their lot and being happy with exactly where they are despite how little we may perceive they may have.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, probably part of the reason I had a lot of fun sailing around the world as well because I had this expectation that it was going to be miserable a lot of the time. Got out there and realised it was actually quite enjoyable the majority of the time.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so how much public speaking do you still do today? I guess there was a lot immediately after your trip, but do you still do much public speaking today?

Jessica Watson: A bit. A lot less than it was for a couple of years there but I still do a fair bit, and I have come to really enjoy it. I went through a period where I was just so sick of talking about sailing around the world but I’m really happy that I’ve found a sort of way of enjoying that again and bringing some of my other experiences into that which is something that I feel like is a good story and I enjoy talking about now.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and where are you currently living?

Jessica Watson: Mostly down in Melbourne but I’m still up here in Queensland a fair bit with parents and family and I do seem to end up in Sydney a fair bit too. So East Coast Australia I think is a safe.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and I read that you don’t really feel the urge to become a professional sailor and cruising’s more your thing. Did you ever feel the urge or the weight of public expectation when you returned from your circumnavigation with the questions sort of public about, “What’s next for Jessica?” Or, “What’s your next challenge?” And some sort of obligation to need to find new challenges to take on?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, there’s the one thing that people say and it seems to be literally the second thing they say to me is, “What’s next? What are you going to do to better that?” And I really struggle with that because everything I’ve done since, and finishing my degree and studying different things now, have bettered that to me. But people do seem to want me to go and do something more dramatic and media worthy than what I’ve done and I’m never going to do that for that reason.

Yeah, and it’s quite funny that some people seem to think that there’s some sort of ownership over me and what I should do that they have some sort of say in what they think I should be doing. It was something I was quite seriously considering whether I would want to pursue racing sailing and maybe race around the world by myself or something. But I kind of have come to realise, it took me a couple of years, that I just don’t have a competitive bone in my body, so it wouldn’t have worked too well for me.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Sometimes when something become a job, it’s not as much fun anymore as well.

Jessica Watson: That’s something that I’ve become more and more aware of and that’s really important to me. I love sailing and I love every part of it and I want it to be something that’s a big part of my life for the rest of my life rather than something I do as a job.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and how did you feel about Ella’s Pink Lady being preserved forever in the Queensland Maritime Museum?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, that’s a perfect place for her. I mean by the time we’d finished setting her up for the voyage, she was sort of set up for one thing only and wasn’t going to help me with any of the racing I wanted to do. So that’s the best place for her. Bunch of school kids get to go visit and I go visit every now and again.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s pretty cool and nice to think she’s not just going to deteriorate on a mooring somewhere and eventually get degraded like many other boats that don’t get the attention they deserve.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, exactly, it’s just wonderful. I didn’t have the time in those first few years to look after her and who knows what happens in the future, and this way she’s looked after forever.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Let’s talk about Deckee and your investment in that. It’s a technology based solution around the marine industry and it’s had some investment to date of some $90,000 and the Deckee website talks about being a service provider to a marine industry of more than a million boat owners that spend some $2 billion dollars a year on services in store and products. 

You have aspirations as a business for going overseas at some point and the business has been part of the Slingshot Accelerator Program and picked up a whole bunch of awards including tourism awards, start up awards, and digital creativity awards. So tell me about your role and how did you get involved?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, I heard about it, gosh it would have been late last year, maybe even more like middle of last, it would have been more like middle of last year and Mike had been through the accelerated program. Mike’s the founder and I heard about what they were doing and I suppose I just immediately saw there was a need for it. As a boatie, you’re traveling up the coast and you want to know where you should be finding the best marine businesses and locations. 

And we have all these fantastic cruising guides, which are wonderful but, huge big books in’ 2016? There should be a place for that on the Internet and I kind of eventually got involved because I realise that that’s something I want to be a part of and to give the boating community, particularly the sort of cruising sailing community, a place and an amazing resource online.

So yeah, my role is sort of communications manager but there’s only the three of us so it does mean a bit of everything for now, which is really wonderful. I absolutely love it because it’s working with amazing boaties all over the place and really exciting. We’ve got some great things happening with a rebuild of the site, pretty much done now so looking forward to rolling that out and getting some feedback on that as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, certainly great having everything online and on demand that you think of tips these days instead of having to carry everything on board and when you pull into a new destination or a new area, you may not have the information you need. So having that online and on demand is fantastic.

Jessica Watson rounding Cape Horn

Jessica Watson: Yeah, and obviously the other big thing about Deckee, so essentially part of it is that it’s a trip adviser for boating. So to have that information there from other people, not just the one author, you’ve got comments and reviews from a whole range of boaties who might have been there just the week before. So that’s where it will become really, really useful if everyone jumps on board as I’m sure they will be as they hear this and actually help the rest of the community out by sharing their opinion as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Just to clarify, it’s Deckee.com.

Jessica Watson: That’s right, yep. Yeah, put it in Google or .com, it’s not that hard.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and how old is the business now?

Jessica Watson: Well it would be, it’s just over a year now. Learned a lot in that first year, slowly and steadily growing and really hoping for some exciting things around this new website.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and what’s your ultimate vision for the business and your plans beyond Australia?

Jessica Watson: Ultimately yeah, to provide a really helpful resource for the boating and sailing community. Australia first but certainly if it’s something that works here and it’s useful here, there’s a need for it around the world as well. So we’ll see where we go.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and how many businesses do you have listed on there currently?

Jessica Watson: We’ve got close to 4,000, which I think out of six or 7,000 businesses, is significant. There’s still a way to go there so obviously we’re asking marine businesses to get in touch and definitely list their details and there’s the opportunity to be listed as a directory there but then also some of the ways it will be built in with locations and encourage your customers to actually leave the feedback there. There’s all this amazing feedback and people do want to say great things and this is the platform for it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Great, and what sort of feedback have you had so far from the customers and the businesses that are benefiting from the platform?

Jessica Watson: We’re certainly seeing that people are saying that there’s a need for it, there are only so many options from the businesses perspective where you can be advertising your product and where is it actually relevant to be advertising, getting the word out about your business. 

Certainly that customer feedback is quite new. We’re seeing in every other industry that that’s becoming a really, really important marketing tool and it’s just, there hasn’t been a platform for that for the marine community yet. From a user feedback, obviously the more people on there, the more useful it gets. Hearing some positive things so far but we just know that the more people using it, the better it gets and that’s the important thing to get to that point. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What are the biggest things that are driving the growth of the site at the moment?

Jessica Watson: Well we are seeing a lot of people kind of discovering it through people, friends telling them about it. We’re getting out and doing sort of being part of as many community events as possible and then also through sort of the stories and the blog style articles that we’re writing, putting out a couple, normally one or two a week. A lot of people are reading that, sharing that and hearing about Deckee that way as well, which is wonderful.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, I’ve been chasing somebody for some details for a survey for three weeks, for a survey that I need to get done for insurance and last night I thought, “Why don’t I just go onto Deckee, look up the Gold coast and see what’s there?” And sure enough I found a surveyor straight away in Palm Beach and got the contact details and straight onto it.

Jessica Watson: Wonderful.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Otherwise if you can just Google the stuff, often you go mental because it brings up such broad results that it doesn’t often find what you’re looking for.

Jessica Watson: Well, that’s exactly it. Is that look, this is probably jumping ahead of myself a little bit here as I’d love to say Deckee become a bit of a Google for the boating world. It’s a place that you actually trust and you know that it’s actually boaties are on there, so it’s information for boaties rather than having to contend with everything on Google. Yeah, and we’ve had good feedback and that was around the award wins too about the design of the site. So something we’re keeping in mind as we build the new one as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s a good looking site and I found it easy to use, and I think the review based concept is a really smart one.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, right direction but as I said, learning a lot as well which is really important because we want to be providing the most useful tool possible.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What do you need more of right now to drive your growth? Is it business listings or customers, or essentially eyeballs and traffic to drive leads and contact to those businesses?

Jessica Watson: It’s hard to know what comes first, but really our focus is with the user and particularly a lot of our cruising sailors who are typically really generous people who want to share. Your average racing sailor might be a little more busy and heads down to the boat all weekend and doesn’t have a lot of spare time.

But cruising sailors are really generous and want to spread their opinions which is wonderful. So really engaging with them is number one concern and getting them on board in using the site, and hearing what they want to be using and what they want to see and then I think the businesses are seeing, once there’s a huge amount of people using the site and finding it useful that it’s something they want to be part of.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Are there any other similar websites in the world for the marine industry that are similar to Deckee, or is what you're doing here quite unique?

Jessica Watson: It is quite unique. There’s a few sort of similar concepts and in the States, we’re seeing, and globally a few sort of sites. Some pretty incredible marina booking platforms and things like that popping up, which is great to see that people are again sort of saying they want these resources online. But so far, yeah certainly it is quite unique but we’ll what happens I imagine in the next few years as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So Jess, is there anything else you want to tell me about Deckee or anything else you wanted to share about Deckee and plans and ides for that before we give Andy a call?

Jessica Watson: No, look, I really want to encourage people to get on there and use it. Also we really love feedback and honest feedback. You know, that’s what’s going to help us grow and improve. So keen to hear that and hear what people think as the new site’s launched as well. So please do get on board and share your opinions, good and bad and your favourite anchorage. What’s good about that and what people need to be aware of.

Jessica enjoying the sunshine while sailing on Queensland waters

Ocean Sailing Podcast: The more people share, the more people get to benefit from that sharing and those reviews and that information.

Jessica Watson: Just becomes more and more useful, yes.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, great resource from that point of view.

Jessica Watson: Definitely, yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, so Andy Lamont, we’re going to jump online and we’re going to call him through Skype to his mobile and we have a chat to Andy because I spoke to Andy maybe a couple of months ago, he’s got a trip coming up, big trip going west, going upwind for some crazy reason…

Jessica Watson: Yeah, that’s pretty crazy.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: …around the world, and he’s, it would be fair to say, he’s certainly a fan of yours. When I spoke to him I said, “If you had some questions for Jessica Watson, what would they be?” And he said, “I’d ask her about this, this, and that.” So got me thinking at the time, “Oh maybe I could organise for you to have a chat to him and maybe he could ask you those questions directly.”

Jessica Watson: Id’ love to. I always love somebody who has chosen the right boat for the voyage.

Andy Lamont: Hi, Andy speaking.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Hey Andy, it’s David here.

Andy Lamont: Hey Dave, how are you going mate?

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Good, thanks. Can you hear me okay?

Andy Lamont: Yeah, you're just a little bit faint, but I can hear you.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, I’ll try and speak up. So Andy, I’ve got somebody else here that is going to have a chat to you about your upcoming westward bound trip around the world and she’s listening in the background.

Jessica Watson: Hello.

OSP: In fact, we might have to sit a bit closer so she can hear you but I have Jessica Watson here Andy.

Andy Lamont: Oh Jessica? How are you going?

Jessica Watson: Yes, hi, good, how are you?

Andy Lamont: Good, thanks. 

Jessica Watson: Good to hear about your trip.

Andy Lamont: So is that you? Is that Jessica Watson, is it?

Jessica Watson: Yes, yes. Sorry.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: How many Jessica’s do you know?

Andy Lamont: I recognise your voice. Thanks for calling Jessica. Yeah.

Jessica Watson: No, no problem.

OSP: So Andy, we’re doing an episode for the podcast and Jessica and I have been having a chat for the last hour or so. When I had spoken to you a couple of months ago, you said if you could speak to Jessica, there are some questions you’d like to ask as part of your preparation. So now you have the opportunity.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. That’s right.

Jessica Watson: I love your choice in boat obviously.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. It was good to get an S & S 34 and just doing it up. Yeah, so where are you now Jessica? You’re in up north in…

Jessica Watson: In Brisbane, I’m down in Melbourne a lot these days but Brisbane today. You’re Gold Coast based, aren’t you?

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that’s right. So I head off in October and sail westward bound. But yeah, there were some things I wanted to ask you about. I’m sort of a blank at the moment.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I thought you would, so I’ve written down your questions for you Andy because I remember some of them.

Andy Lamont: Good on you, all right.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I knew I would be putting you on the spot. So one of the questions you said you would like to know more about is the sail configurations for each wind level and what Jessica found to be the best settings as the wind range went up.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that would be interesting to know.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And at what point she changed from a genoa to a full genoa, and a genoa to a jib and reefed the main, and things like that.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that would be good to know how you went with that.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, I suppose I kept it all pretty basic It was certainly no racing trim with a lot of it. Really it was just the main with, I had three reefs in it which was fantastic and the genoa, which would just fill away a bit of as it got windier and then the big thing I did was used the stay sail a bit which was good but probably not. I don’t think it made a huge amount of difference but then I’d keep the storm sail on the stay sail and just I had to leave that up for quite a while, it wasn’t doing any damage before or after a storm to have it up there ready.

And I don’t know. I suppose the big thing is just getting the main down earlier so it’s not overpowering when you’re sailing, I don’t know if you’ll have a wind vane, but you just can’t sail with too much sail area with the wind vane, you’ve got to be a bit more conservative.

Andy Lamont: Yes, I’m just fitting, I just spoke to Phil George just sent me up a wind vane actually.

Jessica Watson: Oh wonderful.

Jessica Watson inspecting the top of her mast on her circumnavigation

Andy Lamont: I just fitted that last week, yeah. That’s the thing, you’ve got to balance the boat to just keep it underpowered.

Jessica Watson: Yeah. I highly recommend a nice small third reef not that on an S & S 34 sail it could be that big anyway, a third reef.

Andy Lamont: Yep. Oh good, so that’s good to know. Well I’ve got a small third reef, but I’m probably going to do. Did you just have the one main sail for the whole trip?

Jessica Watson: I did, I had a spare, which wouldn’t have been a great sail but I didn’t need it. I was stitching it up a little bit. There was little bits of damage and things.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, okay. So that’s good. It lasted the whole trip for you?

Jessica Watson: It did, but it was suffering a bit towards the end so I’d definitely be taking a spare.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, well I’ve got a spare. I thought I might get another new one made, but I’ve got a spare sort of the whole thing that came with the boat. That was the idea I had of having another main, just so I could have one ready to pop up just in case.

Jessica Watson: Yeah. That would probably do the job.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, well that’s good to know. And what about things like did you have a wind generator the whole way?

Jessica Watson: The wind vane sorry?

Andy Lamont: No, the generator.

Jessica Watson: Wind generator?

Andy Lamont: Did you have any at all?

Jessica Watson: I did actually replace that quite towards the end of the trip. It was fantastic, I liked it and I had a spare whole unit, which I might have been able to problem solve with the first one. I don’t know, someone with a bit more technical knowledge and experience might have been as well but I had the spare there and I just replaced it which was just fantastic. But yeah, you really need your different options with the solar and even being able to run, I was running in and out gear a fair bit, which is not overly great for it either.

Andy Lamont: So you say solar was pretty much, not really that much help down south?

Jessica Watson: No, I still found it surprising how down south it was more that they, or one of them particularly got a bit smashed up during some knock downs and was a bit less effective after that.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. That’s good to know and so you took all your water didn’t you?

Jessica Watson: Yeah but I was catching a lot. My water maker was only like a little hand backup one so it was really only going to get me out of trouble in a sort of survival situation. But I was very surprised and impressed with how much I was able to collect particularly through the Pacific, which might not be as much help for you but the gutter…

Andy Lamont: Well I’m going up and under on down straight home. Because I’m going out the way. So there were gutters on your…

Jessica Watson: Dodger. They were very effective. Yeah, they were great and then obviously just you turn and run with it if once you’ve sort of washed the salt off and put the topper on the end of the boom, pull it up a bit and let it all run off the gooseneck.

Andy Lamont: Yup. That’s good to know. What about, is there anything you would have done differently now that you’ve done it once like as far as the boat goes or?

Jessica Watson: What was that, sorry? Would I do anything differently?

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that you sort of think, “Oh, that was a bad idea.” Were you able to rely on certain things, or is there anything you would have done differently?

Jessica Watson: Look honestly, there was very little with the boat, which was fantastic. I don’t know if it was me now, I would probably actually enjoy sailing it a little bit better and get the code zero out and things like that but equipment wise, yeah, really very little. There was a few things that corroded and didn’t sort of work and rigged up a new little battery meter, but there were all such small things that didn’t really matter.

Yeah, no I can’t honestly say that there would be one sort of big thing that would really, I’d change. It’s the right boat for it and yeah, just keep it simple with the equipment and back up for everything, it’s really all there is to it.

Andy Lamont: Did you have separate bilge? Did you close up all your bilge or did you have it all draining in under the motor? Oh no sorry, you didn’t have the motor in it, did you? So did you have your separate bilge or was it just one big bilge of all that?

Jessica Watson: No, they were quite separate and that was some pretty impressive bilge pumps in all of them and hand pumps as well, probably a bit overboard. Yeah, so have you got the engine in the centre, do you?

Andy Lamont: Yep.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, that’s great.

Andy Lamont: Yeah I got the engine in the centre. I want to close it off, because it all drains into the bilge, the one bilge…

Jessica Watson: Yeah okay.

Andy Lamont: …under the motor and I was wanting to sort of change it all up so that I’ll separate to have a forward bilge, a mid ship bilge, and an aft bilge so that if there is bilge coming in, I know where it’s coming from. Did you have that? Or did you just have it all separated? The bilges?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, it was quite separated obviously at the front. I think the engine really was a bit separate but got to a point and it would just drain in and I did have a pretty leaky prop glands, stern gland.

Andy Lamont: Oh did you?

Jessica Watson: Yeah. Which didn’t worry me but towards the end it was getting a little worse, which wasn’t ideal.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. Was that just a stuffing box gland or?

Elle Bache; major sponsor for Jessica Watson

Jessica Watson: Yeah it was. So yeah, there wasn’t too much I could do about it but it didn’t even matter too much, I just had to make sure I was pumping out every now and again.

Andy Lamont: Right. Cool, well that’s pretty interesting. Is that right on you?

Jessica Watson: Yep, that’s right. I mean I don’t know how, my rig was definitely pretty overkill so whether that’s entirely necessary but I suppose the rigger just thought it was absolutely no harm at the time. Yeah.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. I know you say the inaudible were pretty easy to deal with, and you didn’t have any problem with accidents. Did you have a boom break?

Jessica Watson: Oh what sorry? A boom break? I did use one a bit to start with but I actually just found that really your only option is just to run a preventer and just run something towards to the front of the boat and back and because you’re only tacking every few days, it’s no big deal just to set it up and yeah.

Andy Lamont: Set it up, yeah.

Jessica Watson: That really is the only thing that I found really effective.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, that’s really cool. Well that’s quite all. I’m sort of in the boat ready now. I’ve been sort of working on it over 18 months. Just slowly getting everything done. That was sort of very interesting things to talk to you about. The main thing was just sort of pretty much the boat’s pretty much standard as it comes, and it handles everything pretty good and not really insistent. What navigation do you use, chart plotter?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, chart plotter but I also just had the software on the computer, on the HP Toughbook, which was great and then all the backup GPS handhelds and charts. Which hopefully never had to get used and there was even a sexton on board which I would have been in trouble if I needed that. Might have eventually found where I was.

Andy Lamont: Yeah it’s the same. I’ve got like a million different GPS’s and sextons.

Jessica Watson: Yeah exactly. Yeah, likelihood of needing it is pretty low.

Andy Lamont: Yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So Andy, David here, when we were talking, you had some questions around downwind sailing and whether you were going to pole out your genoa or run wing and wing, or what have you. Did you have any other questions around down and sailing sail configuration at all?

Andy Lamont: Did you run twin heads at all Jessica or?

Jessica Watson: I never did, no. I mean it probably would have helped. Yeah, but I never did, I had a code zero too which I reckoned was pretty useful. I didn’t use it a huge amount but yeah, poling out would definitely be a good thing to be able to do but I never tried the double.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, right. I was all keen to pole out and do that and I re-read John Sanders’ book and he was saying that he didn’t want to pole out the genoa because it rubbed the foresail too much and I was thinking, “Oh, all right.” So I might not do so much of that poling out. But that was what I was talking to David about, whether or not to use the pole or not.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, I mean I’d definitely have it with you but I mean, John’s the real expert. If you’re going to go around three times, you’re going to really going to have to really keep an eye on what’s going to wear out and what’s going to be an issue.

Andy Lamont: Well that’s really interesting. Yeah.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, well do get in touch if there’s anything closer to the time. Yeah I’m sure there’s a lot of good people and you’re talking to all the right people I’m sure…

Andy Lamont: Yeah, how much metho did you take?

Jessica Watson: I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head but it would be in the back of my book. I actually had far too much.

Andy Lamont: It’s in the back of your book? Yeah.

Jessica Watson: I think it is but if not, I’ll follow up with that but I did have far too much.

Andy Lamont: I’ll have to have a look at your book again.

Jessica Watson's route around the world

Jessica Watson: I didn’t need quite that much and it was great with the little cylinders that I had so it was completely sealed and there was no way that any meth could spill even completely upside down.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. I’ve got one of those, it’s fantastic.

Jessica Watson: Great.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, so do you know if you had a lot left over when you came back or whether you’re sort of go back and have a look at how much it took and do you remember that or not?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, no I do remember there was a lot left over. So however much I took, it was too much. But I suppose it’s something that you don’t want to be running out of so you know, cold food would be pretty miserable. Yeah, well good luck with the wind vane. It’s awesome, it takes a bit of getting used to. I’m sure you’ve used one before but lots of spare blades, loads of spare ones because I did snap a few of them and also lines you can never have enough lines because they did even if I set it up perfect, it will still chafe a lot.

Andy Lamont: Yeah. So that’s good. I’ll take lots of spare blades. It’s so light, so you can sort of take as many as you need, can’t you?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, exactly. Honestly, however many you think, just add a few more.

Andy Lamont: What about anti-foul? Do you remember what anti-foul you used?

Jessica Watson: It was an international brand and there was a lot of it on there.

Andy Lamont: Was there?

Jessica Watson: Yeah, there was. Probably the only thing there is you probably couldn’t go high enough because that’s where I had a bit of growth because you obviously healed right over and then so much water higher up that we probably should have gone even higher than we thought. 

Andy Lamont: Yeah, I hear you. I was thinking the same thing actually. I was thinking I might even put a vinyl strut above my water line and to sail that. That’s probably six or seven inches above the water line because yeah, they do tend to get dirty, don’t they? Close above the water line.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, definitely.

Andy Lamont: Well that’s good. Well, look I really appreciate you taking my call. It’s quite great to contact you. I sort of followed when you began to turn around and yeah, I thought it was fantastic what you did. It was very inspiring, so it’s great to talk to you. If I come up with something, I might have to shoot you an email or something like that, if I need some advice on something.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, please do.

Andy Lamont: Ah thanks. Your boat was pretty much perfect as it was, probably the whole way.

Jessica Watson: Perfect in that we didn’t get tempted to over complicate anything. If you keep it simple, there’s only so much that can go wrong. So yeah. I’m sure there’s more we could have done to get the right speed and different things out of it, but it wasn’t about that.

Andy Lamont: No it’s the same for me. It’s about finishing really, that’s the main thing.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, exactly. Good luck with it, I’m sure you’ll be sort of posting or updating somehow on the way and look forward to following you as well.

Andy Lamont: Yeah, well I will be and Dave will be working with me on that, so that will be great. Thanks very much for talking with me Jessica and you have a great day and I’ll shoot you an email and so you’ve got my email address if you ever want to talk to me about anything. Let me know if I can do something for you?

Jessica Watson: Sounds good, yeah, I’ll do that.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, we can arrange that.

At age 23, Jessica Watson has packed a lot into her young life already

Andy Lamont: All right. That would be great. As I said to you, if I have some questions I might just shoot you an email and maybe get some tips, and I’d really appreciate it. So thanks very much and again for all of that. Thanks for your time Jessica.

Jessica Watson: No problem, good luck with all the work.

Andy Lamont: All right, thanks very much.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Thanks Andy.

Andy Lamont: See you, bye.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: See you later on. So that was a few challenges just getting sound clarity and stuff.

Jessica Watson: Yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So thanks for doing that because I know Andy’s been consuming all of the good advice that he can, form all sorts of people and getting as much as he can read to prepare, he’s got a massive to do list as you can probably appreciate.

Jessica Watson: Gosh yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I know he wants to…

Jessica Watson: Never ending. Yeah. No it’s funny because I sort of go, “Oh, I don’t know how much there is.” I can sort of tell him but you start realising all these little things and yeah, there are a lot of simple little things that would possibly make a big difference.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I saw one of your presentations once and the thing I actually truly felt sorry for you on the sail was having to rebuild the toilet because it’s not and a very pleasant job.

Jessica Watson: No, no that was one thing that it fell apart during knock downs. Bit annoying.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, that’s great and so is there anything else you want to touch on before we wrap up the day Jess? Is there anything else you want to share or talk about?

Jessica Watson: No, I think I’m good. I mean, as I said, I love sailing of all kinds these days and I love good stories and following and looking forward to following trips like that, it’s a wonderful thing to be able to do. I think that the Internet and things like this these days you can just follow such great stories from around the world from home.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Actually, one question, on last question on that. What percentage of your trip was reaching or downwind sailing would you say? Versus going upwards?

Jessica Watson: I don’t know, probably maybe only half or I don’t know? I’ve never really kind of looked at it on percentage terms, yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. Because Andy’s going the opposite way so I was just wondering if we were to work backwards on the percentage his was going to be upwind as opposed to downwind.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, he’s in a bit more trouble but I reckon as much of the course is into the prevailing but mine was probably a bit unique because I was supposed to be further south. The idea is you’re down south and you’ve got more wind behind, stronger and faster but I tended to enjoy sunshine warmth and the whole way across the Indian Ocean which is of course such a huge percentage of the trip, I was just so much further north than I really should have been. I was getting a lot more headwinds and lighter winds as well.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right, but you are warmer and drier.

Jessica Watson: Yeah, I was pretty happy about that. I was totally okay that it was a little bit slower.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, and if you’re not in a hurry, you might as well stay warm.

Jessica Watson: Exactly, and just the severity of every storm that came past was just that you just see it, it was so blatant on the weather charts that if I was a couple degree further south it would be 20 knots more and that’s not good.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. Okay, well, Jess, it’s been really, really great talking with you today. So thank you so much for traveling to the Queensland Cruising Yacht Club so we could sit together and thanks for sharing your story on the Ocean Sailing Podcast and thanks for taking the time out to talk to Andy as well. I know he really would appreciate that and I’m sure when he gets off, when he got off the phone he probably had five more questions straight away for you.

Jessica Watson: I’m sure, yeah no problem, it’s been great.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, great, good luck with Deckee. It looks like a great business model, a great idea and it’s going to be a great new website and a great service. So I encourage everybody to take advantage of Deckee.com and you’ll find all sorts of great help and advice and tips and stories and blog articles and reviews, and it’s a great looking the website, so good luck with that, that adventure.

Jessica Watson: Thank you very much.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Thanks Jess. 

Interviewer: David Hows

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Episode 9: Andrew Randell Show Notes

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Folks, welcome to this week’s episode of the ocean sailing podcast, this week we’re with Andrew Randell and he’s got a really interesting story that really is quite unique and again came across it by chance, a neighbour of mine who sails with me regularly, knows Andrew through his work and just to take a couple of steps back, back in 2011 Andrew received the Hal Harper Award for a boat that he had completed the construction of and he’ll tell you that story. 

Andrew Randell receiving the Hal Harpur Award in 2011

We’re going to retrace that story today and really the story of what turned out to be a 48 year project in total and the Hal Harpur award that Andrew received is awarded each year to a person who has best contributed to the New South Wales Wooden Boat Association’s objectives of encouraging the retention of wooden boat building skills and the preservation of historical wooden boats and artefacts. Quite a mouthful to explain the objectives. 

Welcome along Andrew, thanks for joining me today.

ANDREW RANDELL: Thank you very much for that, a pleasure.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Interestingly, Andrew, when he won this award, it was the first time the award was ever given to somebody that was a first time boat builder and non-sailor at the time. Andrew is a unique entrant for a number of reasons and reading an article published shortly after this award was given to Andrew, there was a comment in there about the judges being issued a pack of Kleenex tissues before hearing Andrew’s story, it’s quite an interesting story.

So Andrew, I guess lets goes back to when you were young and this story is about you, it’s about your father, it’s about your family, I guess its something that’s probably consumed a reasonably large chunk of your life.

ANDREW RANDELL: It has. Probably going back to before I was born. Back in the late 50’s, my father who was a keen sailor, had done many races to Gladstone and used to race on Sydney Harbour. He was looking for a boat to build himself to compete in the junior offshore group and he was searching out several designs in the late 50’s and he happened on a design that was from Western Australia by Len Randell.

The Rugged 23 designed by Len Randell in Western Australia

The review of the Rugged design published in 1960 in Power Boat & Yachting Magazine

So he got the plans for a 24 footer and he started construction with that a year after I was born in 1963. He was a very skilled wood worker even though that wasn’t his profession, he started building this boat and I had a sister who was a couple of years younger than I was and unfortunately, we used to go on holidays down the South Coast in Sussex Inlet and unfortunately on one of those trips in 1966, my sister Jackie fell off a wharf and drowned and dad never touched the boat after that.

It was just a hull, steam bent ribs, timber hull with a deck, the cabin was made, no interior, just bare and that’s how it stayed till he passed away. In the meantime, the boat was shipped from Sydney where he started building it, in Cronulla up to Lismore where we bought a farm after he retired and then it was shipped up there in 1976 and then it stayed in a shed for 20 odd years and then they decided to move down to Yamba so the boat was in shipped down to Yamba where it was in a sort of a tarpaulin tent.

So it stayed there, I tried to encourage him to work on it but he wouldn’t. I think he couldn’t bear to part with the boat, but he sort of couldn’t bear to finish it, so he was sort of stuck in this conundrum of what to do and I loved the boat. When I was very young and my sister Jackie who passed away, we used to play in the boat in amongst all the sawdust while dad was planking it up, I still remember that, even though I was very, very young and I used to sit in a boat when I was in my teens, even thought it was in the shed and just loved sitting in it, just loved this boat.

Andrew with his sister Jackie in front of the families boat building project

When he passed away, I said to mum, “Well do you want the boat?” Because she was still alive and we got it valued and it was worth nothing as a bare hull. So she said to me, “Well do you want it?” I said, “Yep,” and knowing nothing about building boats, I’ve built a few houses before so I was good with woodwork, like dad. I think watching him over the years sort of taught me that, his accuracy and everything like that. So I decided to finish the boat. So I spent a year reading about how to build wooden boats, several really good references and then slowly but surely started pulling it apart.

Of course in those last 10 years, the cover on the boat had failed so it had a bit of rot in it, so I had to replace the hull, deck, tops of the cabins, all the deck beams had gone, bar or few and there was a bit of rot down near the bottom of the keel in the back end. I had to replace all that and rebuild the boat to a point where I could start completing it. That was pretty tough, I did a lot of research, glad the internet’s around these days because it taught me a lot too.

Called on some old friends of dad who actually helped in plank the boat up when it was first being built and they sort of guided me here and there on a few of the harder issues. I think building the boat now is probably good for the boat because it’s probably going to last longer than what would have if it had been built years ago with the modern products out.

The rot that needed cutting out down the bottom of the keel in the back end

So I think she’ll last a lot longer than if dad would have finished it. But anyhow, I finished the boat, it took seven years to finish it, so I was doing it every second weekend, I could only afford to go there every second weekend to finish this boat and it was a good bonding time with my mother too because she had a lot too play in the boat. She used to help dad steam bend the ribs and help with the little things with the construction and put up with him building a boat.

Keel rot repairs and the replanking well underway

It was a culmination of when we launched it, I named it after my sister who’d passed away so calling it Jackie after my sister, was a big thing for the family. The loss of Jackie was a big thing, my parents grieved terribly over that, as you would. So yes, launching it, calling it after her, mum being at the launch, was just a big circle of everything that had gone on over the last 40 odd years, 50 years, had just sort of just come together.

Mum was a keen sailor, very keen sailor and from 2011 when I launched the boat until she passed away a couple of years ago, she used to come out with me and sail with me every time I was down there sailing, because the boat’s at Yamba, it’s not in Brisbane. Great sailor, and always wanted to go faster, a little bit of a thrill seeker. The boat has done a lot in bringing the family together in different ways and finishing chapters of everyone’s life, which is funny about an inanimate object like that. But it had a very important role to play.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So tell me about your earliest memories of your parents and because they both had a passion for sailing, they both were active sailors and then your dad actually stopped sailing didn’t he once the accident occurred in 1966?

ANDREW RANDELL: That’s right. I remember going to people’s places that he used to sail with and helped build their boats, I’d play with their kids in the sand pit or something or play with a box of wood, anything we could make the boat out of that floated, we’d do that and then I remember watching dad and his mates build these boats and they’re all offshore group class boats, so the were all about the same size as Jackie. So I guess I’ve been around boats on and off for a fair while with dad.

The people used to come over when he was building Jackie, I remember guys coming over and helping him lay planks or screwing planks and all that sort of thing. So early memories of sailing, I have a fair bit and all through our family, my grandparents, one was a game fisherman, one was another fisherman. So I’ve always been around the water and loved it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Then your dad didn’t sail much after that?

ANDREW RANDELL: No, not at all. He didn’t sail, he didn’t have anything to do with the water, nothing to do with the sailing club, it just all finished in 1966. The sailing fraternity was good they came around and they tried to get him to finish the boat, they did a little bit I think here and there but nothing substantial, that just sort of waned and he didn’t lose contact with his friends, they’re all good mates to him but nothing ever came of our boat. It just sat there.

Andrew Randell's father working on the hull construction prior to 1966

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s pretty awful for anyone to lose as a child, lose a sister or brother.

ANDREW RANDELL: Absolutely. It was interesting too, sort of another part to the story that when dad was researching the design of the boat, it started around about ’58, he was writing to Len Randell who was the designer and this Len Randell, we always thought it was amazing because he had the same surname as us and when dad passed away and we’d launched the boat, after 2011, mum was always keen to do the family tree.

So she was following along the family tree and happened to find a link to Western Australia. Found out that Len Randell is actually a relation of mine and dad and Len used to write letters to each other because there was no faxes or anything, it was all surface mail. So they were communicating, didn’t even know they were related, by about the sixth generation and then I rang Len after the boat was launched and I have a video of the launch and everything so I sent Len that and speaking to him was very interesting. He was telling me that I needed to adjust the weight and had to move this forward and move that backwards and that. I think he’s still going.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What age was he when you last spoke to him?

ANDREW RANDELL: He would have been in his 80’s and he’s still sailing.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So when he designed the boat, he must have been in maybe 20’s or something.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, probably would have been.

Jackie R under construction in the tent in Yamba at Andrews mothers home

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Back in 1952?

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, he probably would have been. He’s the same, exactly the same age group on the family tree as dad would be. They would’ve been the same…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And so you were related all along.

ANDREW RANDELL: We are.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: With the boat designer that lived on the other side of the country.

ANDREW RANDELL: The salt must be in the veins because that generation goes back to the Murray River and our family apparently were the first pliers I suppose you’d say of the Murray River. The captain that built the first paddle steamer and actually used the river as a freight centre and conveying the freight was a Randell and he came out from England and started that way back when. That was quite interesting. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s fascinating to be able to retrace it right back like that. Especially those kind of formative days of the country.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: River boat captains and…

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, well they’ve actually got streets and that named after us. I sort of thought, “Wow, it’s pretty good.” Haven’t been able to see them yet but hopefully one day I’ll get down there, down around Adelaide.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Wow, that is fascinating. So if you go back to when your dad started the boat building project, what lead to him building his own boat?

Andrew often worked on the construction of Jackie R late into the night

ANDREW RANDELL: I think the love of his sailing, he just loved sailing. My grandmother used to say dad would grab anything he could find and make it sail. He’d sail a wooden box if he could plug the holes in it. He was always, he grew up around Watson’s Bay, Rose Bay in Sydney and he was always down the water’s edge, mucking around in the water and building boats, whether they be model boats or whatever.

The documentation my father has, he’s got every seacraft magazine since the first one was ever published, I’ve still got them. Huge library and catalog of magazines and books on sailing. He followed the Sydney to Hobart race from the very first race. Then he got involved in Sydney Harbour with the Vaucluse Juniors and then the Vaucluse Seniors, so he sailed on Sydney Harbour with those and then he moved down when he married mum to Port Hacking, south of Sydney and was involved in the Port Hacking sailing club.

So he’s had quite a career, he had a stint working in Queensland where he sailed some. He did a couple of Brisbane to Gladstone races. I think there was a win under handicap in Simba back in 1958 I think it was. Dad’s always been big on the water.

The 1952 Seacraft magazine review of Len Randell's Rugged design

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, was your mum a sailor when they met or did he introduce her to sailing as well?

ANDREW RANDELL: I don’t quite know that part of it. I know she sailed, whether it was with other boyfriends and then met dad while she was sailing and she was secretary of the Vaucluse Sailing Club. So I think that whole association way back then is how they met, so they’re both in the same club and friends introduced them, she’d go out on some VS’s or VJ’s. Don’t know whether it was that competitive of whether it was a “come on, let’s go for a sail” and bit of a romance there, I don’t know? But she loved sailing, she loved being out in the water and certainly loved sailing when we had Jackie on the water. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So did she largely stop sailing too then for the next few decades when your dad wasn’t sailing?

ANDREW RANDELL: When I was growing up, I never saw mum on a sailing boat, this was all sort of earlier before I was born I would say. We certainly had some funny times sailing, mum and I. One of them if I can recount was when we first took Jackie out and we hadn’t got the sails up yet, she just been launched a week and I was dead keen, I had never been in a sailing boat till I launched Jackie, never ever stepped on a sailing boat.

The cabin top had to be constructed from scratch

I said to my mum, “Let’s just take it out under motor, we’ll just go for a bit of a putt around, test the motor and see how it goes and make sure everything’s fine.” I think we got around the corner from the Yamba Marina and I hit a sand bank. Because I just thought, “Oh well we’ll just go out here and the water looks deep and that.” Apparently around there the sand banks everywhere, which I know now. I did have the brains to go out on the rising tide, so if we did get caught we could float it off.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Saving grace.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah I sort of had that smarts about me but nothing else and it was quite funny, we just stopped and I’m sort of going forward and nothing’s happening and mum said, “I think you’ve run aground.” I said, “Really?” Because I hadn’t calibrated the depth gauge properly or anything like that. So we sat there and we sat there and we didn’t take any lunch or anything with us because it was only supposed to be a quick little motor.

Luckily enough it was just around the corner from the marina so It wasn’t that embarrassing. Then maritime came and saved the day, they pulled up and they said, “You know you’re on a sand bar?” I said, “Yeah, I know that.” They helped us get the boat off and he said to me then, he said, “So you’ve got to be careful now, the sandbar, the channels are here, there, you look for the marks here,” and I’m going, “I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about,” and I said “No, it’s fine, I’m just going back to the marina, I’ve had enough for one day.” We’d only had been 200 meters, that’s as far as we got. So went back to the marina and the guy was really good, he followed us back in, and I thought, “I’m in trouble.” He pulled up at the wharf next to mine, he said, “hop in my boat and we’ll go and have a look at the channels,” so he was brilliant.

Cabin top construction in progress

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Great.

ANDREW RANDELL: So he was taking me through all the channels and yeah, great. After that I knew what I was doing then.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that helps a lot. I mean if you’ve sailed around the Gold Coast, or you’ve sailed on Morton Bay, it’s not a matter of if you run aground, doesn’t matter how many times you’ve run aground particularly if you’re racing and you push things to the limit. Because unbelievably, sand and mud seem to move and don’t always stay where they are supposed to be on the charts.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, I’ve heard that bout Morton Bay, scares me a bit.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s all pretty soft landing stuff, I don’t think you’d want to be doing 10 or 15 knots under spinnaker and run aground but other than that you sort of bounce your way to a standstill and no harms really done other than rubbing a bit of anti-foul off your keel. 

Okay, so if someone’s listening to this and certainly in the show notes we’re going to upload a whole lot of detail around photographic information that Andrew has, so you can see pictures in great detail but how would you describe the design of Jackie R in detail if you are going to describe the kind of yacht that she is.

ANDREW RANDELL: I think she looks beautiful. Sweet lines, very traditional. I haven’t changed any of the design at all, it’s built as per the plan and I’ve probably tried to strike a medium between easy to maintain and functionality. It’s very traditional, she has the wooden mast that was designed for her. All the fittings that dad bought. He was even still buying fittings before he died. The strange part about that I guess is that he labeled everything, probably knowing that I was going to finish it, so he put all these little labels on the things tied with strings saying, “This goes there and here and there,” and all that sort of thing.

Andrew and his daughter, Jaime sailing Jackie R on the Clarence River

Dad was a bit of a perfectionist in that sort of arena. All the original fittings were on it from the 50’s and 60’s. I had to make a few fittings, there was no detail on the plan as to how to make fittings for the mast, there was no cad drawings obviously in those days, so there was no detail. I guess the people that were expected to build these boats were yacht builders who knew what they were doing. So I to sort of work that all out but I’ve kept it as traditional as possible. 

It has very sleek lines, fairly narrow beam I guess, seeing that she’s a racer I suppose. I’ve left the interior showing all the ribs which gives it a bit of character. The interior’s comfortable as you probably see from some photos, I’ll give you to upload. Sparse but comfortable so you can sleep on it, there’s a toilet in it, and there’s a galley and an icebox. So it’s got all the basic things in it. I just think a very pretty yacht.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, what’s the length?

ANDREW RANDELL: 24 feet.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: The draft?

ANDREW RANDELL: Three foot six she draws.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s pretty modest, for shallow sailing, that’s helpful.

ANDREW RANDELL: She’s got about 1.8 tons of led in the bottom I think it is. I’d have to check on that but a beam of 7 foot 3.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and then overall weight, do you know what that is?

ANDREW RANDELL: I don’t, there’s no figures on the plans, to get the displacement figures here, I wouldn’t have a clue. I’d be guessing two and two and a half, three tons maybe.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: How high is your mast, do you know? What sort of rig have you got on?

Andrew and Jackie with their Dad

ANDREW RANDELL: It’s just a Bermuda rig, which was as per design, three quarter rig, so it’s got jack stays up the top of the mast. Mast heights 34 feet, it’s a fairly high mast ratio I suppose, but the three quarter rig brings some of that weight down a little bit. It’s got a large main sail on it, I don’t remember the square meterage of it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s all right.

ANDREW RANDELL: Traditional where the boom goes right over the helm position so it doesn’t finish short, so it’s a head breaker if you're not watching out. Yeah, just a very traditional nice little boat.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, and what sort of sailing have you done so far?

ANDREW RANDELL: Just river sailing. I’ve only ever, as I said before, I’ve only ever hopped in a boat after it was launched.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s your first time sailing ever was seven years after you started the building project and then jumped in on day one.

The interior fit out of Jackie R progressing well

ANDREW RANDELL: Exactly and then the first sail was — I’m going to sort of digress a bit was when the rigger put the sails on her which was a couple of weeks after mum and I run aground. He said, “Oh, well let’s go for a sail,” and he’s a great bloke, he’s become a friend of mine and yeah, we took it out and run the motor and this is me never been in a sailing boat and never having hoisted a sail. We got outside the channel at the Clarence River and he said, “Cut the motor,” which I did and he said, “We’re sailing,” and I went, “ Wow. It’s great. No noise, it was just such an exhilarating feeling the first time.”

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Had you visualised that day all those years you spent working on the boat? Is it something that sort of tucked in the back of your mind?

ANDREW RANDELL: Not really, I didn’t know what to expect. I really didn’t know what to expect having never done it before. It was quite strange, I guess I approached it with a lot of in trepidation but felt really valiant I suppose that I was going to take off in this boat and do all these great things but yeah, my sailing is basically just river sailing. I sail up and down the river, that’s enough for me at this point in time.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: How wide is the Clarence River just to give people an idea because it’s not a small river is it?

ANDREW RANDELL: No, it’s actually a port, we do get big coastal freighters in there, there’s a tug boat in Yamba and as big as the ones in Sydney, basically some of those. I don’t know how wide it would be, it’s deep like in places that’s 30, 40, 50 foot deep and there’s a big channel that goes to the actual port where they unload the freighters. It is a big river and it goes all the way to Grafton, you can’t sail that far, not in a keel boat.

The cabin top construction stage commences

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And they have a big regatta on every Easter.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, very big yacht club there and awfully good people yet again and they do twilight racing once a week and I think every second weekend they do comp racing on a Sunday I think it is.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, what sort of fleets would they get down there what sort of sized fleets?

ANDREW RANDELL: I think they’d probably get 12 yachts out at a time but they probably draw on 25, 30 yachts, they have a lot of members but its who can make it on the day. Yeah, 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s good; it’s not dissimilar to the Gold Coast.

ANDREW RANDELL: Very strong sailing community, a lot of yachts there

Ocean Sailing Podcast: When your dad started the project originally, what sort of tools did he have to work with back then, sort of 50 odd years ago from now?

ANDREW RANDELL: He was very traditional, of course back in those days he wasn’t on a good wage as most people weren’t. He had all very nice tools, strong tools but nothing electric, the only electric tool, I think I ever saw him use was a very old metal cased drill, aged drill with a sanding disk on it. He had the loan of a band saw which I think eventually bought, then a friend of his used to bring in a belt sander and they are the only three tools I ever saw on the job, the rest was all hand planed, using adze to cut the keels and hand saws, everything was hand saw cut and even routing, he routed with the hand router and it’s a carvel planked boat and Monel nailed between the planks. 

The planks are only three quarter by three quarter on steam bent Tasmania Oak ribs and they’re all screwed and glued to the ribs and then nailed to each proceeding strip plank so it was quite solid and he used to screw all those screws into every rib. I think there’s 168 strip planks on each side, all that was hand screwed with brace and bit. Very traditional tools. 

Jackie R under construction prior to 1966

I take my hat off to him and the boat is just so symmetrical when I was building it like you, you fit off the rub rails and things like that. You measure where it’s going to go on the side of the boat for example and you can guarantee if you went to the other side, it wouldn’t be five millimetres extra or half an inch extra, it would be spot on so the overhang would be the same on both sides. It’s very well built.

I remember him lofting the boat from the plains in a local scout hall, I do remember that, I must have been so young but I just, well maybe I remember the lofting sheets that he still had. I remember them in the garage that he didn’t throw away. I remember all that, very traditional.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Did you have any other brothers or sisters?

ANDREW RANDELL: Apart from Jackie I’ve got another sister, Meredith who was born sometime after Jackie passed away in 1968. She’s six years younger than I am and she goes out sailing with me when she has the time.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. After 1966, did you still carry on going away on the same family holidays, or did lots of things change about life?

ANDREW RANDELL: Yes, that finished, all that finished because those holidays were connected with the ocean and the sea, we used to go down there and my grandfathers and myself and dad would go out on these little single cylinder putt-putt boats, go fishing for the day or whatever and the ladies would stay and do whatever they wanted to do and then we would come back in at night and clean all the fish and eat them. All that sort of finished, they didn’t want to take the risk, there was just no more water.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Wow. That’s really sad especially when its something that carries through the decades following that tragedy.

ANDREW RANDELL: I took mum back to Sussex Inlet a couple of years before she passed away because she wanted to go back down there and revisit the site so that was a good thing to also do. I guess that was because I was down at her place working on the yacht all the time, I had to drive from the Gold Coast down to the Yamba to work on the boat. I’d do it every two weekends, every second weekend for a whole weekend, so we sort of got a bit closer.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: In that time.

ANDREW RANDELL: Then she said she’d liked to do that. So I said, “Yeah all right, let’s go.” That sort of completed another part of the story I suppose. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Did you think your dad suffered a whole lot more than your mum in terms of getting past, I know everyone suffers at the time, but in terms of being able to move on?

ANDREW RANDELL: Back then, men were stoic and there was no support systems for men back then, you didn’t go down to the pub and tell your mates or anything, you just kept it to yourself. For dad I think it was probably a bigger load to carry, mum did have support with all her girlfriend’s of the day. It was a big thing for dad and I think that was the major effect, he just didn’t know what to do.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s like a post-traumatic stress syndrome type situation.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, that went on for 40 odd years and he sort of had to carry that load.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s interesting reading your story about having conversations with him about kicking the project into gear and you saying, “I’ll bring my tools down,” and him saying, “That would be great,” and then he just found other reasons never to start again.

ANDREW RANDELL: I was Mr. Power tools and he was Mr. Traditional tools. So yeah, I’d pack all my electric rip saws and docking saws and routers and everything in. I’d say to him, “I’ll come down and help you,” and it’s be on and he’d say, “Yes, let’s do it, let’s do it.” And I’d get down there and he’d find any excuse not to do it, “Ah, beautiful day, let’s go fishing from the rocks,” or something like that. I never wanted to force the issue with him. No is no, and no will always be no with him.

The cabin top being attached to the hull on Jackie R

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Especially after all that time.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, which was a shame but yeah, he would have loved to have seen the boat in its current form. He would have loved to have been on it. I think I did him proud by how it’s turned out. It’s exactly the way he would have wanted it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It looks immaculate. I mean to be recognised by the Wooden Boat Association, given the criteria and given the high calibre of people that are lifelong craftsman and sailors that you’re competing with, it’s a huge acknowledgement.

ANDREW RANDELL: It was a big thing.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Given the background, it really is.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, that was a huge thing because I’ve never really sought any acknowledgement from anything and to be nominated for that and then winning it, then I had three judges come up from Sydney to have a look at the boat and they were the ones that came up with the winning entry and yeah, took mum down and we received the prize in Sydney at the Wooden Boat Association meeting and yeah, it was really nice to get that and the little plaque that goes on the boat. It’s sort of yeah, it’s sort of says I’ve done a good job.

The Hal Harpur Award Plaque proudly displayed on Jackie R

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, I guess it takes you from thinking, “I’ve done a great job with this,” to, “Wow, I really have done a great job with this,” in terms of when you get outside people validating the quality of your work.

ANDREW RANDELL: Well, that’s right because I’m no boat builder. For your peers to say, “Yeah, you have done it.” It’s a good reward.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You definitely did your dad proud…

ANDREW RANDELL: Oh thanks.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: …too with that kind of acknowledgement. And to pick up any project and work away diligently for seven years and from where you live right here to where Yamba is, is a good two and a half hour drive, maybe more in a bit of a traffic.

ANDREW RANDELL: Back then there was no bypass.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: So to do that every second week for years on end. That says a lot about your character and commitment to the project. 

ANDREW RANDELL: Having said that, there was one stage in particular where I was going to throw it in because I’d done a fair bit of work on the boat and I’d checked everything and I thought it was sound and then probably about 75 to 80% through the construction or the restoration of it, I found rot in the knee at the back of the boat. Of course it got to the point where I was working away from the front of the boat to the back of the boat inside and it was time to do all the engine beds and things like that and the plumbing for the exhaust and all that sort of thing. 

I was sanding it down, ready to paint the undercoats and the final coat for the engine bay and I was poking around with a screw driver and the screw driver went straight through the side of the boat, it was just rotten to the core and I thought, “This is now beyond me,” I thought. I went down to Sydney and saw this friend of my father’s that helped build the boat originally and spoke to him and he said, “Oh that’s all right, it happens all the time when these things get a bit of fresh water in them.” That’s what it was from, fresh water, because that was the lowest part of the boat. It found it’s way down there and just sat there, and we didn’t know. 

The cabin top and forward hatch taking shape

Ocean Sailing Podcast

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, it wasn’t too bad. It was the knee that was gone, which supports the transom and the keelson, so it was just basically a wedge of timber but it’s quite important to the whole integrity of the boat. So I started pulling the planks off from the outside because it had rotted through to the strip planking and the boat is constructed from solid, straight lengths of spruce. 

When dad was building the boat, he happened to be talking to someone at the hardware store and they said, “We’ve got all this,” — he was looking for boat building timber, “We’ve got all this spruce out there that someone was going to make an aeroplane with.” And he said, “He never came and picked it up so we want to get rid of it.” So it was worth a fortune but he got it for next to nothing and they were longer than the length of the boat, so the whole thing was planked without any butt joints or anything like that, only blocks end to end, which made it quite strong.

Anyway, this little bit that I had to do was probably about a foot from the keelson and probably a couple of feet long so it only went over two or three ribs. So I pulled all that apart, it was rotten both sides because it was down beside the knee, made a new knee, got some spotted gum which is what the keelson’s was made from. Used the old one as a bit of a template and the plan, I still have the plans of the yacht. 

I was able to reconstruct it. I built new ribs for it and then I got some spruce, which costs an absolute fortune these days. Re-planked it and scarfed all the joints in as they are supposed to be overlapped over several ribs, it’s as good as what it was but yeah, that was a bit of a back breaker that one. Because that was a mammoth task

The cockpit construction underway with cut outs for windows and lockers

Ocean Sailing Podcast: How far were you into the project time wise by the time you discovered that?

ANDREW RANDELL: I’d actually fibreglassed the boat.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh right.

ANDREW RANDELL: It’s glass sheathed, always was meant to be. I had fibreglassed the boat because it seemed solid from the outside. I’d fibreglassed the boat early on to protect it and didn’t know it was rotten. I had been around most of the boat and tapped everything and checked it out but for some reason, that bit — because it was down beside this knee, this block of timber, it was down in the valley that you wouldn’t normally go in to. Probably if you knew more about boats, that’s be probably the first place you go to.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Lucky you found that while it was still on land, not on the water.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah exactly, yeah exactly. I think the back of the boat would have fallen off but yeah so anyway, fixed all that and that was just the major thing and then the motor was another thing trying to get it going. I was a couple of days out from the launch and had the cranes all arranged to come and pick the boat up and truck it down to the marina and I thought, “I better try and start the motor,” and it wouldn’t start, I spent hours and hours and hours trying to get that motor to start. I’m now an expert on Kubota diesels because I found out they’d been sitting for so long that all the injectors in the pumps had frozen.

Cabin top complete at last

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right. That was originally in the boat, the motor.

ANDREW RANDELL: My dad had it, he bought it, it wasn’t the original motor, the original motor was a five horse power Stuart Turner petrol motor.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right. 

ANDREW RANDELL: Dad hated petrol, petrol and gas in a boat, he hated it, hence the galley’s got a metho stove in it and the motor’s diesel. So I remember going to a boat show in 1965 I think it was and in those days it was in the old Sydney show grounds near Randwick, Maroubra. I remember going to buy the motor and it was a Yanmar single cylinder motor and I don’t know what model it was but this motor just sat on a pallet, we had to go and pick it up several weeks later and I remember throughout my whole childhood time, this motor just used to sit in the garage on this original pallet from Japan.

It had never been started and dad sold that unfortunately and then bought a two cylinder Kubota marinised diesel, which is probably a better motor, it’s 15 horse power which is more than adequate for that sized boat but I believe some astute person bought this motor as a museum piece because it was brand new out of the factory, never operated, had all the original paint on it and it’s quite a good buy for somebody I’m sure. Yeah, getting the motor started was a big thing and when I finally fired and smoke went everywhere and I thought, “You beauty I’ve got you.”

The hardware being fitted to the cabin top

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, that’s good. In terms of how the boat was stored, how was it stored in the years before you started the project, where was it stored and how well was it looked after?

ANDREW RANDELL: Not looked after at all basically and when we moved from Sydney to Lismore in the late 70’s, it was stored in a shed that dad built, so it was a purposefully made corrugated iron shed, that was a good place for it, concrete slab on the floor so it was put on blocks there, in its cradle. Rats got into it and all the timber he had, dad collected timber like you wouldn’t believe. Unfortunately, so do I.

It was all just stacked up there in the shed and that’s where it stayed, that’s where I used to get in with my mates and play sails and that sort of thing. Would have been a perfect place to work on the boat, because they had power there and it was sheltered and it was just brilliant. Then when they moved down to Woombah, near Yamba, it was put under a sort of a make shift tent with a metal frame so it was like a canvas tent and the boat had a cover over it. Those cheap plastic covers you can buy.

Yeah, that’s when it started to go downhill, like that’s when water got into it, fresh water rot. The rot made its way through the decks between the cabin and the top of the deck and got down, that’s when it traveled down, would have flowed in there and then down to that keelson area, that I was telling you about before were rotted out.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Just sat there.

ANDREW RANDELL: Just sat there and stagnated and rotted out. I guess that was probably in the last couple of years before he passed away. Even though there was rot there, it wasn’t bad but in the interest of getting rid of the spores in the timber and fixing the whole thing, that’s when I decide to just rip the whole thing apart and just rebuild it. Luckily the cabin sides were okay because they were all mahogany.

All the important timbers that are the show pieces of the boat remain, it was just a deck and the beams which gets fibreglassed over anyway so it was no great way.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, okay. When did you first seriously considered taking in this project on and you thought, “I’m going to do this.”?

Andrews father in 2002 in front of Jackie R, 39 years after he started construction

ANDREW RANDELL: 30 years ago. I’ve always had my eye on it but never been game to say it to the old fella when he was alive but it was pretty much instantaneous because the first thing I thought of when dad passed away, was the boat. At Woombah where the boat was when he passed away, it was basically right outside the back of the house, so you couldn’t miss it. You saw it all the time.

I don’t know, I guess I just knew I had to do it. I just wanted to do it. There was probably no question about it and I suppose in the back of my head I knew mum would say, “I did want it,” at some point in time. It was only valued at $500 when he passed away. You’d probably be better off burning it really.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s hard to get someone else take on a project. Given the time and money to complete it.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, well you would have to be really keen, the amount of work that would have had to do. You couldn’t pay someone to do it and I couldn’t afford to pay someone to do it, so I had to do it myself. Like building a wooden boat is horrendously expensive in man hours. I’d hate to tally up how many man hours I spent. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I was going to ask you that next.

The anti-fouling paint goes on after the topsides have been finished

ANDREW RANDELL: Every two week for seven years and then occasional holidays thrown in plus all the planning. So I’d have to — of course I was working in Brisbane, I’d have to preplan what I had to do when I was down there the following second week and sometimes I would go down every weekend if there was something important going on that I had to be there to do it.

You have to preplan your materials so that you could drive down the Friday night, you wake up early in the morning on the Saturday, hit the ground running and get stuck into it. Because there was things like the resins curing time and all that sort of thing that I had to make sure that that was all done and completed before I went home to start work the next week.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You couldn’t leave something for a couple days and come back to it. I that to fit in that two day window every two weeks.

ANDREW RANDELL: The chemical bonding of the painting and rather than paint something and then sand it off and then re-paint and sand it off. I’d do it during the drying times of the paint. So that you got the chemical bond and not the mechanical bond. So there was all that to consider and getting stainless steel parts made in the background and all that sort of stuff.

So even though I’d go down there and work every second weekend, the weeks were taken up with preplanning or zipping away in my lunch hour to get something knocked up at the stainless steel shop or getting bolts and screws and researching all that and buying parts. Yeah, it basically took the whole time in some form or researching the next part of the project.

The painting and varnishing is underway on the cabin top

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Hours would easily run into the thousands really.

ANDREW RANDELL: And we won’t talk about the money, okay?

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. That was my next question.

ANDREW RANDELL: No, no, no. I can’t be doing that.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, we won’t talk about that. But knowing how — I’ve done a little bit of upgrading, refitting and the hours and the money just runs away. The more you find, the more you find that you want to do next.

ANDREW RANDELL: I think my acumen with the boat is use it or lose it because I just get down there as much as I can, I’d be sailing every day if I could. My target is to go down every two weekends and every second weekend and sail, which I generally do but there’s been some poor weather, six months ago where I couldn’t get out for some reason, things happened but I’d still go down there and start the boat, at least run the motor, and just check all the seacocks and everything.

The boat, it’s got a full cover over it. The sail maker put a full cover over it. Of course there’s so much varnish, it’s not as much varnish as a traditional boat, it should have been varnished all the way down the cabin sides and the cockpit because it’s all mahogany but as much and all as I love timber and I love to see varnished timber, I sort of thought of the maintenance aspects, I’ve actually glassed that painted it the same colour as the boat.

I spent a lot of time agonising over that, but there’s still enough woodwork around the combing of the cockpit, around the cockpit hatch way and the rub rails and the toe rails, they’re all still varnished and the masts are varnished and the boom. So I’ve got enough woodwork there to make it look traditional without a huge amount of maintenance but the cover has just saved it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s gold isn’t it? ‘Cause this climate is really tough on varnish.

ANDREW RANDELL: Well the varnish has lasted, I just did a bit of touch up on the varnish in November last year, it’s lasted basically five years. The original varnish we put 10 coats on which I did when I redid it, I put 10 coats on. I’ve had the mast done once and re-varnished it 10 coats again. But it pays, it pays.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. That’s for sure, the time that goes into prepping and putting extra coats on while you’re doing it makes a lot of sense.

ANDREW RANDELL: Well, all through the construction, I use the best that I could possibly buy, the best paint, the best fittings. I suppose being a non-yachtie at the time, I thought to myself, “Well I’m going to put my trust in this craft when I’m out on the water. I don’t want a seacock to blowout, I don’t want this to happen or that to happen.” For my own safety and sleep, because the boat’s two and a half hours away from me now. I don’t want anything to go wrong with it and get a call from the marina saying, “Your boat’s sinking.”

The bilge after painting is complete

Ocean Sailing Podcast: No, cause you can’t there in a hurry.

ANDREW RANDELL: No. So I’ve used the best quality materials.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. So in your 93-page summary of the project, that I read through, it really showed your passion for constructing a yacht and sort of staying true to the original design integrity, right down to the materials that you used and how easy was it to do that, given how much has changed with technology and boat building methods since Jackie R. was first designed in 1952?

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, it was no surprise in the fact that I guess I read a lot about traditional boat building. So I was sort of locked in that vintage of boat building because I had to be. The products available today like the wood hardening products, there was sort of none of that at all, back in those days was all copper naphthenate, red lead, white lead, which dad had used in places, which in some areas I’ve dug that out and used other materials.

The two pack paints are far more durable than the old paints and the glues, the resins. So I’ve used epoxy resin throughout the boat only for the sheeting and some joints to back the quality of the joint up with the traditional screws and bolts or whatever but the boat is basically traditionally built with just that touch of new products, originally she was supposed to be Dynel sheathed. I sort of researched that, the deck and the cabin sides where you’ve got a lot of sharp turns, where you can easily mould Dynel, that was really good in the rudder in places. 

So I’ve reinforced corners in that with Dynel but the basic fibreglassing was done with modern composites, epoxy resin and heavy grade woven mat. So I think yeah, doing it that way I think has been the best thing for the boat. I think it will last a fair while, the keel is not iron, it’s lead keel, lead that my father and I collected over the years. That was a big job, the lead keel. One I don’t want to do again.

The rudder under construction

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Did you pour that yourself?

ANDREW RANDELL: Yes, very difficult to do trying to keep over a ton of lead hot enough to pour that…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Oh and that’s a lot of weight to actually just manage.

ANDREW RANDELL: Well it was.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Into the right spot.

ANDREW RANDELL: To pour near the boat. Then using old Roman way of rolling things on logs and stuff like that, that’s how we sort of manoeuvred it around on winches and ropes and jockeyed it into position. I suppose the hardest part was to lift the boat up so that I could get the keel under it and drop it back down. But yeah, it took weeks to do that. It was just one of those big jobs that just inch by inch…

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Did you manage to draw any sort of mates or friends or volunteers and supporters in along the way to help you here and there with some of the tougher jobs that required more than one person?

Clamping the tiller during the lamination process

ANDREW RANDELL: Not really, as soon as I mentioned the boat, everyone would disappear. There was a fellow next door who lives next to mum’s place that he helped me on a few things but basically, I just did it the smart way. There wasn’t too much I couldn’t do by myself with a block and tackle or whatever so I didn’t really have any help. 

The only trouble I had was actually towards the end when I was fitting it off like putting all the deck fittings in, the cleats, et cetera, you couldn’t be holding the screw head or the bolt on the deck while you’re trying to do it up from underneath. So the fellow next door had come over and helped me do that. So I know it was basically a self-effort, the only time that I nearly did something stupid was I was putting the belting around the side of the boat for the rub rail, that’s a fairly substantial bit of timber, it was laminated timber and trying to spring it around the side of the boat so it was all epoxied up and I’d predrilled all the holes.

I sort of got to the point around the bow where it was starting to come in rather sudden. I’m trying to get this timber to slowly screw it into the side of the boat and the damn thing let go and nearly sent me flying off the ladder, cause it just sprung back. I’m off the saw horse and I’m gone and that’s nothing too. I’ve never fallen off the boat while it’s been in the water but hell, I’ve fallen off the boat when it was up in the cradle a few times.

The laminated tiller is completed and ready for fitting to Jackie R

Ocean Sailing Podcast: I guess it’s quite high up too, especially once you’ve got a keel underneath them.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, that’s right. I have been sanding away and suddenly oops, there we go, off again. Yeah, I didn’t really get too much help.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Along the way, did your mum keep quite close tabs on progress, did it to become a growing interest for her?

ANDREW RANDELL: Oh yeah, it was fascination for her and another part of that story was the boat where I was building it was underneath a lot of trees, big gum trees and that was always a constant worry for me and I mean huge gum trees, just one branch is coming from one of those, would have just destroyed the boat.

I’ve actually got some photos of such an occasion, where we had a huge storm and every time I’d go there and there was a storm, of course that area is renowned for some pretty good storms. So in the summer I’d be standing on the veranda with mum and we’d be just watching each lightning strike, thinking, “Oh no. Please no.”

One day a big branch did come down and it just clipped the bow — no it clipped the tent that it was in and the tent fell down sort of on to the bow and just put a very slight mark in the toe rail or something, it was near the end of completion but it was hardly any damage. I think the old man must have been watching over me at that point in time because it was so close. 

If it had been another foot it would have possibly knocked it off the cradle. It fell from a fairly good height and there were just tree branches, there’s a photo of tree branches just all around the boat and there’s the boat just standing in the middle of it. That was quite amazing.

Jackie R narrowly missed serious damage after the storm passes through Yamba

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Somebody was watching over you. Those things weigh tons when they shear off and come down.

ANDREW RANDELL: Well mum was straight on the phone, “Quick, get down here, there’s been a storm and I think the boat’s been moved off the cradle.” So I was panicked and I’ve flown down there, the two and a half hour trip that seemed to take a lot less that day. But got down there, luckily the boat hadn’t moved. It was just the tent was all skew if, and we put it all back up and everything was fine.  So lucky escape for Jackie R. there. Very lucky.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: With your mum during that time, did you have any conversations about what might have been if you completed it earlier? Did it ever come up or something she…

ANDREW RANDELL: All the time, we used to sit out on the veranda because we don’t mind a wine each. So we’d sit out on the veranda with a bottle of red and some cheese or something and just look at the boat and discuss what was done that day and she would always come down, I’d be working away on the boat and she’d always come down and see how it was going with it, checking the progress, see if I was still alive or something probably.

I’d go back down there after dinner at night, she’d be down there with a torch at 10 o’clock at night saying, “You ever going to come to bed?” So yeah she was quite actively interested in it. I’d tell her “I’ll be down this weekend” and she’d say, “Oh, what are you doing this weekend?” Yeah, it involved her completely and I think in a way, when the boat was lying idle and it was just a bug bear in a way to her I think, because the boat had cost money to drag it from Sydney to Lismore, from Lismore down to where they were. I think mum sort of had a bit of a thing about that where she couldn’t understand why dad would want to keep it. So that became a bit of an issue.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: An issue between them as well?

Andrews Dad relocated Jackie R from Sydney to Lismore when the family moved north

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, I think so because when dad was alive, she’d say things like, “Why don’t you burn the thing?” Or something like that, or, “Get rid of it.” I guess because it symbolised Jackie as well. So there was all that going on in the background. When I started building the boat, she did a 180 on that. So then it became a passion for her as well and it was good for us because I used to live a long way from mum and dad so I never used to catch up with them very often. But again every couple of weekends was good for mum.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Great for her, at her age, to see her son every second week all of a sudden for years on end.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, so it was really good for her and then going sailing with her was great because then once she was launched and we went sailing and we’d come back home, bottle of red wine on the back veranda and talk about the sailing. So it was quite a good thing, a great togetherness there.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Pretty special kind of last chapter for her really in her life.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah well that’s right, and I’m glad I finished it before she passed away so she had five or six years of still being involved in that and seeing dad’s project through, which I think was a bit of a, I don’t know whether a light bulb moment would be the right thing to say, but a turning on of yeah, it was a good thing to do and she’d often say, “Ah it’s a shame your father’s not here to see the finished product,” so as I say, she’s done that 180 and yeah.

Andrew preparing to take his mother Fae out sailing in Jackie R on the Clarence River

Ocean Sailing Podcast: For her to actively sail with you too as your main crew member.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, that’s right.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Up until she was what - 83?

ANDREW RANDELL: 83 yeah. 

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah up until then, probably 12 months before then but yeah, no worries she’d hop in the boat and she’d love it and it was easy I had someone to hold the rudder while I was hoisting the sails in the wind and that sort of thing, so it was quite handy and I’d just give her the tiller and she’d quite happily sail down the river and I’d just sit back and look at the world go past. Suited me. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Do you prefer sailing upwind or downwind or any preference?

ANDREW RANDELL: As long as the boat’s moving in a forward direction, that will do me. I like tacking, I like sailing upwind, I like the tacking. I like being busy on it so to do a good tack and to see you go through your 90 degrees or whatever and come out of that without losing too much boat speed, I’ve got an appreciation for that and I do like doing that, gets a bit monotonous sometimes like if you’ve got an easterly blowing on the Clarence River and you got to tack all the way home, it gets a bit monotonous. You could put hundreds of tacks to get home.

The finished cabin interior 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s a long slog.

ANDREW RANDELL: But yeah look, I’ll leave it as long as I can before I have to start the iron sail up. I hate doing that. So I’m determined that I’ll get home under sail if I can. Unless I run out of light.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: How much time do you typically spend out on the water on any one day?

ANDREW RANDELL: Oh it’s usually about four hours. I try to pick it as the tide’s sort of building. So I’ll go out on the incoming tide. Of course coming to the marina there, I don’t — I’d have to have another look at the chart. The depth sounder always goes off in low tide when I go through there. So I know the channel, there is a sand bank in the middle of the channel that is quite shallow.

So I’m always just a bit weary of that, plus that’s where I ran aground last time or not far from it. So I have a healthy respect for that part of the river. I generally go out as the tide’s building and come back in at the top of the tide towards the end of it, which presents a little bit of a problem because Yamba’s got a training wall you’ve got to go through and that is the main channel, just on the other side of the training wall as you’re coming from the marina.

The plushly fitted out interior of Jackie R is completed to a meticulous standard

To go through the gate, it’s not very wide and you’ve got to really approach it with a bit of a gusto otherwise — because as soon as you get past it, the tide will take you either port or starboard, depending if it’s going in or out. You got to be ready for it and then the same thing applies, probably worse when you’re coming back home if you’re on a run out tide or a run in tide or something like that. You’ve got to basically put your bow right into the tide and then flick it at the last minute to get through the hole because it’s not very big.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: If you can handle that, you can handle most marinas. That’s about as tough as it gets. I think I’ve berthed in a marina once on a river where you had to point your bow 45 degrees to crab your way through the channel with mud on either side because if you pointed straight, you just got swept down river and onto the mud bank.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, scary stuff.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: It’s a bit unnerving, you’ve got to commit, you can’t half commit.

ANDREW RANDELL: That’s right, you got to commit, and sometimes I’ve been through the wall at 45 degrees just keeping the bow to that tidal line, ‘cause it’s very strong, very strong tide there. You’re dropping down into, probably going from 12 foot into the 25, 30 foot or something like that.

The cockpit finish is first class complete with windows and lockers

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah right.

ANDREW RANDELL: So it’s a fairly big drop away.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That is a big tide. Okay.

ANDREW RANDELL: Correct me if I’m wrong, any Yamba sailors out there.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What’s next for you Andrew? Do you have plans to get out of the river one day? You have plans to be cruising, any racing, any…

ANDREW RANDELL: Racing is definitely on the menu, I’d like to get involved in that very much so. I don’t know what the future holds where I will keep Jackie. I don’t know whether I can continue driving down there for the next 20 years or whatever. I don’t know about that. 

I do like the Clarence though for what it offers. I can be sailing when it’s fairly crappy outside which I like. Sailing outside, I really don’t know, I need probably help with that. It’s not off the menu but I don’t have enough confidence in my skills or the boat because I only started sailing five years ago and I’m 54 now.

So if I’d have mucked around with boats right from the start, I’d probably have that — not blasé approach, but I would certainly know my limitations and of other boat’s because I probably would have stepped from the boat, to boat, to boat.

The sun sets as Andrew takes Jackie R for a sail on the Clarence River

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah.

ANDREW RANDELL: I would have liked to have the opportunity as a kid sailing lasers and that sort of thing, I’ve even thought of even buying a laser so when I’m not down at the boat, I could at least muck around up here on the Gold Coast on a laser.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, that’s a good idea. I mean out of Hollywell you can launch off the beach there quite nicely indeed, and store your boat there if you want.

Launch day for Jackie R

ANDREW RANDELL: Relationship wise, I think I would be killed but anyway. Yeah, I’ve often thought of that. So going outside is a bit daunting to me. I like it, I’ve been outside before but for me, in my boat, yes, I don’t know.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Crossing bars just for the benefit of people listening, crossing bars on the Australian East Coast, you’ve got some that are a lot nastier than others, you’ve got to time it all right and then they’re not suitable in all weather conditions. So there’s a little bit of a challenge getting in and out of, and over the bar there.

ANDREW RANDELL: I read a lot of yachting magazines, I subscribe to Cruising Helmsman, a few other good magazines. You read the hell stories there.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well they don’t write stories about the people who make it, because that doesn’t sell covers, they write the horror stories.

Jackie R is carefully craned onto a waiting cradle on the back of a truck

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah well that’s the trouble, I’m reading all these stories and going, “Cross that off the list.” So it doesn’t really help me.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: There’d be hundreds of movements a week in and out over the Gold Coast Seaway out over the bar there.

ANDREW RANDELL: Successful ones.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Successful yeah. Certainly good to give them the respect they deserve.

ANDREW RANDELL: Its things like that. You hear about the odd green one that comes over the side and stuff like that. I’d probably need someone that knows more about sailing than myself to assess the boat and say, “Yeah okay.” It’s things like reassurance, “Yes, your cockpit is good enough to drain, yes, your bilge pumps are good,” which they probably are but I need someone to say, “That’s it.” Before I trust the boat to go and do that or, “Your propulsion’s good enough,” and all that sort of thing. That’s the only limitations that are stopping me.

A very proud Andrew and his mother Fae watch as Jackie R is lowered into the water for the first time

Ocean Sailing Podcast: What sort of speed can you motor at?

ANDREW RANDELL: I tried under motor with the GPS on, I’ve got a chart-plotter and everything on board. Probably five to six knots.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay, yeah so that’s pretty reasonable. So it’s always good to be able to motor sail out over bars or back in over the bars just for safety sake and getting through as fast as possible.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah. So yeah it gets along at a fairly good clip.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. Well that’s great. I guess when you look back over the last 50 years but certainly over the last 15 years, what has this whole experience taught you about life I guess? It’s an interesting story.

ANDREW RANDELL: Hard question. That you can achieve anything if you want to. I’d have never really consciously thought that I would be finishing the boat 20 or 30 years ago. It was probably an idea but to do it, to actually get in there and do it, under some fairly adverse conditions with problems that cropped up and just the enormity of pulling the whole thing apart and with some sadness too that I was pulling apart dad’s work.

Jackie R is finally complete after 48 years

But I think that if you tackle something and you do enough research, I would think you can do it. So it’s probably a bit like, “Yeah I can probably sail outside,” I’ve just got to look at that and get the mindset right. I can do it, I know I can do it, it’s just a matter of doing it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: And it sounds like the boat’s more than capable of doing it.

ANDREW RANDELL: Probably. It’s probably the owner that’s the problem. I mean that’s what she’s designed for, she’s designed to be smashing her way through the sea because that’s what she was designed for. The original prototype’s still going, that Len Randell made.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Do you know how many were built under the design?

ANDREW RANDELL: I don’t. And I’d love to see another one. There’s been one for sale in the Afloat Magazine, I noticed it last year or the year before. Quite a pretty little boat too. More traditional than mine. In the original design, they actually had slatted cockpits so all the water would go down and you’d have someone there with a bucket and they’d bail it.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Right.

Jackie R's wooden mast in construction and finished with 10 coats of varnish

ANDREW RANDELL: The idea when they used to sail those, the whole race you’d have someone there bailing and that was it, that was your job, you just bailed. 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s not all that fun.

ANDREW RANDELL: No. I don’t know how many are around, I’d love to know. I’d like to see and I think there’s rumours I read the other day, the JOG classes sort of, there’s a bit of a rumour that they might be starting it up again, which would be nice. I’m sure there’s a lot of old ones still out there. Even in the modern guys, there’s a fibreglass 24 or whatever the tonnage has to be to pass, I think it would be a great idea. That just adds another dimension to sailing. 

I’ve had a call from another fellow in Western Australia that is doing up another boat called Rani. So I’ve had a few email conversations and a few phone conversations with him and I’ve sent him over my plans, I’ve got the full set of plans. Apparently this fellow went and asked Len. I don’t think he had any of the plans left or didn’t have any copies of them. So I’ve got the original plans for the — it’s called a ‘rugged’, the class of boat, a rugged design. 

The meticulously constructed wooden mast and spreaders

So I sent him over the copies of those and he’s got a lot of work to do, he’s basically pulled that whole boat apart. Of course it was in need of a lot of rib replacements, a lot of cracked ribs because the original design was kauri planked, corked with roves on the ribs so dad for some reason, in discussion with Len and decided to carvel plank it and then fibreglass it, which Len seemed to think that was fine.

Bu it made it a bit lighter than the original because kauri’s a lot heavier than the spruce. Which just meant he had to have more weight inside the boat but we I’ve got more moveable weight in the boat now, I’ve got led ingots that I can move around the boat, depending on who is there, it’s very sensitive to weight.

Okay. Well that’s handy when you’re racing as well, if you can put the weight in on a heavy day and take it on a light day.

The masthead contains 21st century marine electronics 

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, I’ve got a couple of the ingots I’ve got left over that are made up from the keel lead, so they’re quite handy so I just got big handles on them and I can move them around. Yeah, it’s an amazing project, I’m glad I did it and I guess the recognition from the Wooden Boat Association plus fellow sailors that I’m just out on the water with. I was out on Saturday with my nephew and I’ve got a yell from another boat saying how pretty she looks and that’s just common place. I’m not blowing my own trumpet. It is a pretty design. I think dad picked a nice boat and I think Len designed a beautiful boat and it’s all in the Randell family.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah, it’s fantastic really and I think any yachtie admires a classic well built boat that just doesn’t date. It’s a timeless kind of look. And then, if you own a boat, you appreciate the upkeep involved when there’s varnish and timber and there’s a lot more to keep a boat looking great. 

ANDREW RANDELL: Maintenance wise, I think my idea of how I did it is working well. Like the maintenance is doable and all the products were good products like two pack paints and that. It sat out quite well.

Andrew playing on Jackie R in earlier years when his father was still working on her 

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Keeping it covered is good.

ANDREW RANDELL: Yeah, that’s the main thing, keeping it covered. With the covers off it looks as good as the day it was launched. So she’s doing all right.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well it’s great. Well Andrew, it’s been really great talking to you today. It’s been really interesting reading your story and hearing your story. Talking to you has been really, really fascinating.

ANDREW RANDELL: Thanks.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: If I can give you any help with the bit of a test sail out over the bar on Jackie, or doing some offshore racing here, just with me…

ANDREW RANDELL: I’d love that.

Fellow sailing friend; John Green with Andrews father in earlier years

Ocean Sailing Podcast: …feel free to, because its just one step at a time, if you’ve got a boat that’s fit for purpose, which she sounds more than fit for purpose, then it’s just a bit of building up your skills and confidence and knowing where your limits are as well and…

ANDREW RANDELL: I think going out on other people’s boat too gives you that aspect of the other side of it and you can relax more and probably learn more because I find that when I’m sailing, I’m very attuned to where I’m going, how I’m doing it and all that sort of thing. Even though it’s a pleasurable experience, it’s great but you’ve got that worry about your boat.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You’re busy, you’re responsible, you’re navigating and.

ANDREW RANDELL: That’s it, yeah. When you’re and someone else’s boat, it’s not that you don’t care, it’s just that you have one less thing to worry about potentially.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Yeah. You can soak up whatever detail you want that’s interesting to you, cause you don’t have to look 360 degrees as well.

Jackie R safely under cover in her berth in the Yamba Marina in Northern NSW

ANDREW RANDELL: I have found that when I’ve been sailing in other boats that little bit of a worry factor is gone, so therefore you’re sort of taking it all in, you probably are enjoying it to a different degree. Yeah, that would be lovely.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Okay. Great, well, we’ll wrap that up there and when publish this, we’ll make sure that in the show notes that we upload photographs and plans and everything else. So lots of detail in terms of checking the website when you hear this episode so you can really appreciate the beauty and all the thousands of hours of pain and passion that have gone into completing the Jackie R project and I’m sure our listeners will really love to be able to see that level of detail which will really put it into context for them.

ANDREW RANDELL: Thank you very much for the opportunity to tell the story.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: You’re welcome.

ANDREW RANDELL: I’m glad someone’s taken me up on that.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: Well it’s my pleasure and it’s going online so it will keep it somewhere forever.

ANDREW RANDELL: That’s good.

Ocean Sailing Podcast: That’s great. Thanks Andrew.

Andrew Randell sailing with his mother Fae in Jackie R on the Clarence River

Interviewer: David Hows

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Episode 8: Ken Thackeray Show Notes

Links mentioned in show notes:

SICYC Website, SICYC Facebook Page, Skipr.net

OSP: Hey folks, this week we’re sitting here talking to Ken Thackeray and we’re going to talk about the Shag Islet Cruising Yacht Club and to finding out about that and how that’s quite unique in a number of ways and Ken’s got a great story to share as to how it’s evolved in the last seven years and some of the other things that are happening in the background and that they are not what you would expect from a normal yacht club.

So Ken welcome along, thanks for joining us today. We are at the seventh birthday party of Shag Islet Cruising Yacht Club. I had to tear you away from the proceedings to fit in a little bit of a chat and I appreciate you taking time. So tell me about the Shag Islet Cruising Yacht Club and where the idea came from when you go back to the early days.

Ken Thackeray with a Johnny Depp impersonator at SICYC's 7th birthday party

KEN THACKERAY: Oh it’s a strange thing really because my wife and I were on holidays in New Zealand and we decided to have a look at the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron because we wanted to have a look at the memorabilia from the America’s Cup and we got dressed appropriately and arrived at reception and found we weren’t able to enter and having called the manager in, he explained to us that you either had to be a member of the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron or another Royal Club or the flag officer of any fleet and we waited for our cab and off we went.

A couple of months later, I happen to be up in the Gloucester Passage in the Whitsundays sitting on the beach having a drink with a avant-guarde, old ex-army friend of mine and he said to me, “If you had been a vice commodore of some crappy little yacht club they would have let you in,” and we just happen to be looking at Shag Islet. So we came home and bought some shirts and bought a pile of vice commodore burgee’s because we figured that everybody should be a vice commodore in this organisation and now, we’ve got 4,625 people from 14 nations involved.

OSP: Wow, fascinating and 4,600 and something people as vice commodores, can get into most of the yacht clubs in the world I guess given they’re officially attached and affiliated to an official yacht club.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, I think they’d probably have a little bit of front these days because everybody knows who we are and really the joke’s now has subsided because the group in themselves are just wonderful people doing wonderful things for charity and I think what started as a joke has now turned into something that’s really marvellous and very supportive to the people on water.

OSP: When you read about the things that you do, it’s quite a serious affair now. It’s quite a large organisation if you look at the money that you’ve raised for charity, which we’ll talk more about. You look at the membership base, you look at the community of people that, they’re not just members by name, they gather together, they benefit from the membership and the network you’ve set up including the ability to locate fellow members nearby with online mapping tools, it’s really quite fascinating.

KEN THACKERAY: It is and the biggest thing about it since formation in 2009, is we’ve never placed an ad. Everything has been word of mouth and the people themselves, the ambassadors of the organisation, they’re just the most fantastic people. The demographic basically is about 42 to 75 and they literally carry the banner for the organisation. The fact that we raise money for prostate cancer just happened because we didn’t expect this to be as big as it is.

Ken Thackeray SICYC presents a cheque to the Prostate Cancer Foundation of Australia

Our aim is to still create and maintain a network for cruising yachties and the fact that we raise money is just in consequence to that. But never the less, over the last six years we’ve raised just over $300,000 for prostate cancer. A lot of that has been done collectively and some of this has been done by individuals who have given their own time and effort to raise that money.

OSP: That’s a significant cause and they say now in Australia it kills more men than women that die of breast cancer. How did you choose the Prostate Cancer Foundation, as a cause to support?

KEN THACKERAY: After the first year, I think there were 34 people within the first rendezvous and then we raffled a bottle or red wine and we made $265 and we gave the money to Montes Reef Resort to put our logo out the front as a bit of a joke. A few weeks later I was talking to a few members and I said, “Look, this is in danger of making money. We’ve got to find a charity,” and one of the ladies explained that breast cancer is very well marketed and that the awareness was strong and she’d had male relatives that had succumbed to prostate cancer.

Shag Islet, Gloucester Passage in the Whitsundays

She said, “I think guys a bit stupid and I think that we should go with prostate cancer.” So that was it and I think the coincidence has been that there are demographic age is very coincidental with the onset of prostate cancer anyhow. So we’re talking to people in our organisation that are actually potential suffers with prostate cancer.

OSP: And they’re the people that are in that early detection group as well and if they can do something about that early, they’ve got every opportunity of success rather than leaving it until it’s too late.

KEN THACKERAY: And then part of the evolution of SICYC is bringing that awareness and once we got involved in it we started to find people putting up their hands to say, “Look, I am suffering from prostate cancer,” or, “I’ve been operated on it,” and so even within our organisation, we’ve now got a sort of informal counselling group where people are able give one another advice and assistance and the Prostate Cancer Foundation of Australia is one of the leading scientist in Australia heading up their research, in Queensland and she’s been very supportive as well. So there’s been a strong marriage between SICYC and the Prostate Cancer Foundation of Australia.

OSP: Okay, that’s fascinating. So when you look at seven years on, how what’s largely become a significant organisation and how that has evolved, what are the main aims now and have they changed much since those early days?

SICYC members form the Prostrate Cancer Foundation logo on the water each year

KEN THACKERAY: No, the aims haven’t changed. We’re very strong on the idea than it is to create and maintain a network for cruising yachties, and that’s how it will always be. We’re certainly not touting ourselves as a fundraising organisation and if we don’t make more money successive years, well it doesn’t matter at all. But as you probably may know, the people that fly the burgee, which is a Vice Commodores burgee, (at the moment there’s 4,000 of those floating around the world), can identify themselves wherever they might be.

We ask members to place their VHF on 16 and 72 on scan and when they arrive in an anchorage, harbour or marina they can go in and do an open call and ask if there are any Vice Commodores on net and so they can socially meld wherever they are and also from May until October each year, we have the Vice Commodores Net, which runs on 65 and 16 at 0745 Australian eastern time in the morning and that’s straight after the Queensland HF weather and they can talk there. We also have an SICYC page on Skipr.net where you can log in, say where you are and that’s very good for the Vice Commodores keeping in touch and also for their families that might want to know where they are.

Besides that, they have newsletters that come out every six weeks and we’ve got a very active Facebook page. So the involvement of the individuals is what SICYC is all about. They’re the people that make it work, they are the people that keep the momentum going and from the cruising point of view, it’s wonderful for first time cruisers because they can immediately slide into this very social network, which envelopes them and it gives them confidence and assistance and direction to as they go up the coast.

OSP: It’s a great way to start cruising for someone who’s new and when I started five years ago, it was quite amazing from a standing start not knowing anybody,y how friendly boaties are, but those same people, if you walked past them in the supermarket or the street, you wouldn’t even know who they were, but on the water and so having a structure where from the get go, you can identify fellow club members and then on skipr.net see both located on a map is pretty cool. And so with skipr.net, how many of your members actually update their locations when they’re our cruising?

KEN THACKERAY: I think it’s seasonal. We find that our page is pretty dormant during the summer season but during the winter cruising season it livens up again and not everybody cruises the coast each year. So you’d find that there’s a varying number but certainly it peaks out around May, June, July and it’s very little activity at other times.

OSP: Okay and what’s the kind of split between yachties and power boaters of the members, do you know?

KEN THACKERAY: I don’t know. I think the majority would be sail but we’ve got a huge number of power boats and there’s no differentiation at all. Everybody is happy in the organisation and in fact, I think we’ve got about 15% that would get seasick if they looked to the water and don’t own a boat at all, because it’s become such a social organisation that people are joining for just the social aspect of it.

SICYC members gather together in 14 different countries

OSP: Yeah and in most power boaters are friendly people and I know I ran aground recently it was thanks to a power boater who pulled me off the sand and I needed the grunt, so they come in quite handy. So tell me how membership works? If I want to become a member, how does it work? What does it cost? What do I get access to and where do I join?

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, well to become a member SICYC, you go to www.sicyc.com.au. On there, it explains like everything there is to know about the SICYC, there is a blog site attached to it, there is a Facebook site attached to it and on the home page, there’s a pretty welcoming sort of introduction and then there’s a page specifically dedicated to how to join. So you can just join online. The essence of this networking idea is that people choose a nautical location that they know something about.

Subsequently after they’ve applied, they become the Vice Commodore of that location and it might be a beach or a reef, a bay, an inlet, a quay or something like that. So as they go through their application they choose that location and it costs them $65 and they’re in for life and that life membership includes a shirt with the Vice Commodore logo on it, it gives you a life membership card and everybody’s card, everybody’s life membership number is 0010 because our motto is that we’re exclusively non-exclusive.

OSP: Especially after your early experience at the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron.

The Shag Islet Cruising Yacht Club Burgee is photographed all over the world

KEN THACKERAY: So it kicks off in a happy way. If people want to buy a burgee, they can buy a burgee for $35 and that entitles them to receive whatever they want over the years and once you become a Vice Commodore, you are responsible for running it as anybody else. Even today, if a chap approached me and said, “Look, I can run a function in Port Douglas?” And I said, “By all means” and that’s how it works. People in Hobart have regular functions and it just depends on the vibe in the particular group.

OSP: Yeah.

KEN THACKERAY: But yeah, so there’s no ongoing responsibilities for anybody but once they’re in the network, they’re there for good.

OSP: And there’s no ongoing costs either, other than your time, right or the cost of getting to  wherever you want to go.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, so it doesn’t detract and some people get this wrong. It doesn’t detract from the yacht club of origin, but if you happen to be a member of say, Royal Sydney Yacht Squadron. Royal Sydney Yacht Squadron, as a few know, is probably one of the pre-eminent squadrons in Australia and it provides great services to it’s members. The difference is, SICYC doesn’t have that strong geographic grip, it has a universal grip. So while you’re cruising, the chances of you running into somebody on a regular basis from Royal Sydney Yacht Squadron is very slim. But being so strong in numbers, SICYC has a huge cruising fleet out there that enables this association by recognition of the burgee and the radio nets and so on.

OSP: Yeah, it’s a great concept. Have you seen this concept and operation anywhere else in the world that you know off? It’s like a national membership that’s affiliated to what you’d like to do as opposed to where you live. Have you seen that anywhere else?

The members get into party mode at the Shag Islet Cruising Yacht Club Rendezvous

KEN THACKERAY: Well there’s two parts; my wife and I had no idea we were organising something that was going to turn into this. I thought we’d get 50 friends and just have a bit of fun and ho-ho-ho-ho and just laugh about it. And I don’t think you could have written a business plan for it because, I can’t believe it now, let alone perceive it. But yeah, I don’t know really, the only similar organisation I have seen is Hash House Harriers.

And I believe, as I reflect on it now, looking at the Hash House Harriers people, that was started in I think Malaysia during the British military presence and it was established I think by some army people and now it’s a rash. It’s all over the world and it’s a fun way of exercising and having fun but it’s the nearest thing that I can think of to what SICYC might be.

OSP: Yeah, it’s a great example where it illustrates as human beings how we just like to connect to anybody from any background if they’ve got common interest or common passions.

KEN THACKERAY: I think in a lot of ways people like to be a little bit tribal and especially people traveling in isolated environments particularly where you’re two people, just a couple on the water and if they feel that they have other people in their presence that can give them advice and assistance, that might have some experience that they’ve never had and just for the pure thought of having somebody to socialise with on the water I think is particularly important. As we’ve gone on over the years, people tell us that when they first trip up the coast they were very nervous about it and they were just so pleased to have other people giving them a hand.

OSP: It’s amazing how you go from being nervous to being experienced just from one visit to somewhere and it’s a great example too of when you’re cruising and you’re accessing land from the water often you have got limited time, so when you’ve got people that can tell you where to go to get stuff fixed or that can tell you how to make the most of your time on land, places to go and eat or get a coffee or whatever, that community is what makes the whole environment really, really satisfying and enjoyable and it helps you make the most out of it.

200 plus boats gather each year at Shag Islet, Gloucester Passage, in the Whitsundays for the rendezvous

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah well there’s two parts to this, as we go along now, we have what we call a season of sail for SICYC and all the way up to coast for the cruising season, we have marinas and clubs now that welcome SICYC members and they have functions, arrival functions and discounts for them in their location and that’s a big part of it I suppose.

OSP: Yeah, well this starts create another whole dimension when you can gather together as you’re travelling up the coast, especially when there’s a couple of thousand of kilometres of coastline.

KEN THACKERAY: At our annual rendezvous, we meet up in the Whitsundays in Gloucester Passage each year on the last weekend in August and we’re getting between 200 and 240 yachts at each of these events and the local accommodation facilities are booked out annually, so you’ve really got to book ahead to be there and the caravan parks are booked out so it’s a little bit like a light to an insect at the moment. People may not be members of SICYC but as they travel up the coast they meet other people and they get to hear about it and then they sort of end up all together.

It’s just a lovely sight to see all of these people in their blue shirts up there enjoying themselves together and then the other side of it comes up on the Saturday of that weekend. We have an activity called Holding Hands Across the Blue for Prostate Cancer and everybody has their blue shirts on in their tenders and we have a series of temporary moorings put in and they hold hands across the blue in the shape of the prostate cancer logo.

We have our VIP guests each year on a super yacht with a band on the back of it and we always have some story to deliver about prostate cancer and our relationship with it while they’re entertained on the water and they’re having a champagne so it’s a nice event too.

OSP: Yeah. It’s really interesting I saw some photos on your website and they might be taken from a helicopter or a drone or something of the boats gathered together in that symbol and it’s quite amazing to see.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, HeliTaxis is one of our major sponsors and they provide helicopter support throughout the whole four days of our rendezvous each year and they take scenic flights and they donate back to prostate cancer from a percentage of the money they make. So that’s how those beautiful aerial photos are taken.

OSP: It’s such a stunning backdrop too being in the Whitsunday Islands. So this year, what are the dates for the event?

KEN THACKERAY: The event is actually is the 25th to the 28th of August and our main theme this year is Parrot-head, a Jimmy Buffett type theme and this year, we’re having a radio station operate over the four days as SICYC Parrot-head Radio, to keep everybody informed of what’s going on, giving them tide tables, giving them weather reports, having sponsor half hours for our very important sponsors.

The 1972 HQ Holden Station Wagon being raffled at the 2016 Rendezvous

This year, we’re raffling a 1972 HQ Holden station wagon, which is being done up in Jimmy Buffet Parrot-head wrap and we have over 20 other fantastic prizes that go with it. So we have fireworks on the Saturday night. We have probably five bands that operate over the period and we actually, on the second day, have a function out on the island, which is a kite theme and so kites from all over the place are flying over the area, we have the sausage sizzle and we have a band and the radio station operating from out there so it’s all a lot of fun. 

OSP: Wow, it looks like a great sort of festival.

KEN THACKERAY: It is, it’s good. My wife and I had enjoy the meet and greet, which happens on the Thursday afternoon and we can sit there and have a glass of wine. You look at these people because some of them are coming and meeting people that they haven’t seen since last year and then you meet people or you see people that are obviously new to this and you can see this network just evolving in front of you.

It’s an amazing thing and by the second day, the new people are as part of it as the people that have been in it for years. It just absorbs people’s enthusiasm and their personal commitment and involvement and yeah, it’s marvellous. We get a bit of a tear in our eyes sometimes it’s an amazing thing.

The detailed graphic art work was all provided by sponsors

OSP: Well it appears from being here today, that it’s a great community and a great bunch of passionate people that just have gathered together and a great social time and share stories.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, it’s wonderful.

OSP: So what are some of the memorable moments for you I guess over the last seven years and particularly the annual event in the Gloucester Passage at Shag Islet in the Whitsundays, what are some of the things that stand out for you?

KEN THACKERAY: Well the rendezvous always stands out because it’s the key event that we have but members get together wherever they are and they organise things. We’ve had two people, one from Malaysia and one from Thailand who organised sail-aways and we did the sail away from around Langkawi and then another one from Langkawi to Phuket and that was very well attended by people all over Australia and in fact from overseas.

We had one of our members organise a motor home trip around South Island, New Zealand and everybody turned up, hired a motorhome and put their burgee in the back window and motored around the place.

OSP: Land cruising.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, land cruising but you always find that somebody will come up with something that really strikes you. You know, some individual that will come up with something and just do something extraordinary. Last year one of our very pretty young members decided to shave her head for prostate cancer and she raised $25,000 in doing it and she worked her behind off for that year and culminated it with a haircut.

Fun was the theme of the day at the Shag Islet Cruising Yacht Club 7th birthday party

Then another one of our members decided being having diagnosed with prostate cancer, he’d like to raise some money and he and his crew on Great Expectations raised $78,000 for prostate cancer. So there other things where you just sit down and shake your head and you think to yourself, “You know, how do these people do it?” And we’re so proud that we sort of had something to do with engendering this sort of enthusiasm in those people because as you would have noticed from the people around, one these people are in it, they’re in it up to their ears and they get so involved.

OSP: That’s pretty satisfying for you to think you planted that seed in the early days and its gathered some momentum and then suddenly this mushrooms into something that’s got it’s own momentum now and as people join it, one in every hundred have got something special that they bring that starts to add another dimension.

KEN THACKERAY: One of the chaps that is here today pulled up in the Galapagos Islands, dropped his anchor and he and his crew were pretty tired so they made sure the anchor was set and he said they went to sleep and they woke up just before dusk and they looked up and the boat beside them had the SICYC burgee flying…

OSP: What are the chances?

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, what are the chances of anchoring side by side in the Galapagos. Another day in Borneo where a guy saw the SICYC burgee on a boat and he brought four other boat’s crews over and they all got a photo taken together. We had a Special Forces guy who’s been one of their fellows for a fair while and he arrived in the Kabul and he was operating out of Special Force Headquarters and we wondered why we got all of these French and strange nations joining up.

Then he sent a photo of them all with their bloody glasses on and the SICYC burgee on the wall up behind them. So there’s some incredible stories to be told about how people joined SICYC.

Another georgeous sunset for cruisers anchored at Shag Islet

OSP: That’s amazing, how it starts to spread like that. And when you’re think about 15 odd countries and with the way the events are planned by the members or the Vice Commodores in their locations, do you understand how many events are being run in the locations?

KEN THACKERAY: Some of them actually have discrete groups, but most of them don’t and they let me know wherever they are in the world and then I just send out e-mails to those geographic locations and people turn up.

OSP: Oh right, to invite people from the membership base, to a members event?

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah.

OSP: Yeah right, great.

KEN THACKERAY: But we have a group of about 12 I think coming from Key West in Florida for the rendezvous this year and they have their own little gathering and sometimes they have them discrete but other times they have engendered more enthusiasm from other people. The people in Amsterdam are pretty busy. They have a function every six months. One function they sail on the water and the other one they ice sail.

OSP: Yeah we take for granted here in Queensland how winter’s not winter everywhere is it?

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, no, no.

OSP: Okay and I guess when you got something like this that sort of mushrooms from n idea into something that’s quite large, how do you manage the administration workload?

KEN THACKERAY: Well that’s the other extraordinary thing. You look at the band that you saw today and they’re Vice Commodores and they give their time. We’ve got solicitors, barristers, accountants, disc jockeys, all sorts of people in the organisation and one of the strong organisation is iSonic, which is a software development company and they write all of our software.

So people are just join online and once they join online, their application is sent to our supplier. The supplier sends the membership packs out to them and once a month the supplier sends us a bill for what’s gone out. So gone are the days where we had some people write things out on a piece of paper and then trying to keep it in bloody Excel or something.

OSP: So you’re not packing and posting from the back office anymore.

KEN THACKERAY: No, no we sometimes don’t even know if people have joined, such is the process but we always send them out a response to let them know and what actually they have got themselves into and where they can contact us if they need to. Yeah, so it’s not as bad. Actually, strangely enough, as the years go on it’s easier to manage than it ever has been before.

OSP: Okay, so how do members get feedback to you in terms of photos of what they’re doing and the activities and other things?

KEN THACKERAY: Some people don’t get that involved with it. I suppose 20 or 30% of the people have this thing where they’ll send a photo like this morning I received one of the guy’s standing in front of Niagara Falls and we had some people go to the Royal Yacht Britannia in, I think it’s Glasgow, and it was snowing and they’d paid for a dinner in the boardroom or whatever it was and she snuck out during the meal and held our burgee underneath the royal ensign.

So they send you these things, which is just a bit of devilment and that it gives everybody a bit of entertainment and the other things it’s that sense of belonging. They have a strong sense of belonging, these people and those sorts of things are the things that make it. You’ve probably read through our newsletters, our newsletters are having a shot at somebody who drinks too much wine or somebody who’s late all the time or something like that and they developed the relationship with people they’ve never seen before.

OSP: Well you get to the stage where with one-upmanship, where people start looking at even more creative places to have photos with the burgee, right? They start planning, that stuff…

Shag Islet Cruising Yacht Club members are passionate about getting behind each years party theme

KEN THACKERAY: My wife and I are going on holidays next week to Europe and we packed the burgee and the shirt because I’m sure there’s going to be places there where we can sort of add to the culture of the organisation.

OSP: Okay and are you Facebook as well?

KEN THACKERAY: Yep, Facebook. Facebook’s very active.

OSP: And people are sharing stuff on Facebook, do you find that?

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, that’s good. It’s a closed book, so we don’t have rat bags coming in and going but where people want to put something on there, it comes into us and one of our administrators posts it up and that’s good and we don’t sort of bar things in a general sense, you just want to keep the culture right.

OSP: Yeah and stop blatant promotion and the self-interest type stuff that can happen at times.

KEN THACKERAY: Which is a big problem for an organisation like ours because people now see that we have this reach and so very often, other charities come to us and say, “Can you promote this?” And of course we can’t. We already have our own charity and of course now, we’re sponsored by some wonderful, wonderful sponsors and we’re a good vehicle for them from the nautical point of view because we have such coverage and they’re very good for us because they provide discounts for us and provide all sorts of things that you wouldn’t get in another yacht club over a broad geographic area and so at the moment there’s discounts all the way up to the coast.

OSP: Yeah and they’re also reaching people that are actively cruising as opposed to yacht club members who don’t own boats or they own boats they never use and never leave the marina. So they’re a pretty active, passionate group in terms of taking advantage of what you offer.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, I know. I don’t know where it will go from here but it certainly is just a self-fulfilling prophecy at the moment. We did a calculation yesterday and in three weeks, we’ve had 57 people join and when you consider that there’s no advertising in that, its something people would be quite amazed at.

Hundreds gather for the beach party at Shag Islet

OSP: To get from say 2,000 to sort of 4,600 members, how long has that taken?

KEN THACKERAY: Oh initially it was slow.

OSP: It takes a while right, to first start?

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah, we figured we could only get 50 members because we’ve been singlehanded for a long time and had a few names and I just told them what I was doing and that’s the only marketing we’d ever done. It was just evolved from there but I think when we got the burgees, the flag maker said he could only do a minimum of 100 and I came home and my wife said, “How many burgees did you get?” And I said, “I got 100,” and she nearly killed me.

She said, “Where are we going to get rid of a 100 burgees?” And I said, “Ah we might get rid of them in a couple of years,” and seven weeks later they were gone and that’s where the journey began and we were on a journey that we knew nothing about. We didn’t know where we were going, why we were going there, and even how we were going there because it was just something that as we spoke about before, that there must have been a need for and all of sudden it just went.

Yeah, I often think that there could be opportunities for this and all sorts of other things like the grey nomads in the caravans and there’s still, although there are some associations, there’s still not something that is run completely on the idea of SICYC. And even golfing groups, people can’t own a golf club but they could become more of a holistic organisation where they go to all these rat bag golf courses, the little sand courses and have that sort of a culture but I am only smart in hindsight because we had no idea.

OSP: Well yeah and the thing about sailing and being on the water, there’s so many choices of anchorages and there’s so many risks and things that could go wrong and there’s so many great experiences if you just know about them and it is quite unique, isn’t it? When you think about yachting down the water being reliant on word of mouth and other’s experiences as opposed to Google maps taking you wherever you need to go from golf course to golf course or caravan park to caravan park.

KEN THACKERAY: I think a lot of people too, it’s the dream and a lot of people when they’re going to work on a daily basis just can’t afford to go cruising and then as they get a bit older, they now find themselves a little bit better off and have the time to do it. So a lot of people are not only out there in an isolated environment but there are couples that are probably in their 50’s or 60’s or in some cases in their 70’s out there really doing it and it can be tough from time to time. If you just haven’t had the experience, it’s nice to have the reassurance.

OSP: Yeah absolutely and on a couple of fronts, because no matter how good your boat is, stuff breaks and they can be quite stressful and quite disconcerting depending on what it is so having a network that can give you advice and help with how to fix stuff or point you in the right direction. But also if you are cruising for the first time, you never really know how much is too much wind when you’re anchoring and how much is too much of anything when you’re looking for safe locations, so having that knowledge base and that confidence to just get started because you can go from having known nothing about cruising to cruise for a month or six weeks non-stop and you will learn a lot in a very short period of time and with what you offer in the community that’s behind it, that means people can get out there without that “I’ll wait until I know enough” type of procrastination holding them back until they run out of time.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah and it’s just got so many aspects to it. There was a boat at Pioneer Bay at Airlie Beach and it was drifting and drifting pretty fast in a 35 knot breeze and there was nobody on it and some other Vice Commodores saw the burgee so they went straight onto the SICYC site, Googled the boats name, got the phone number of the people who owned the boat. The wife got onto 72 and asked if there’s any Vice Commodores in the area. Three SICYC boaties jumped onto the back of the boat, they re-anchored is and were able to tell the people that were ashore that their boat had drifted and been secured and that’s the network in action.

OSP: Yeah, that’s a great example there that never would have been coordinated any other way.

KEN THACKERAY: Somebody was saying, “Oh that boat’s drifting,” but to have that network around you, to know that hey, we’ve got to do something and not only wanting to, but being capable of doing. Being able to go onto the SICYC membership site with their username and password, call up the boat’s name, get their phone number, ring them and say, “Your boat’s drifted.”

OSP: Well that’s a great resource because most people don’t know but if you’re not on your boat and it’s anchored, you’re not actually covered with insurance in many cases if there’s damage. So having people watch out for your boat when you’re not around for that one in a hundred times is a pretty good support base to have. So in 2014, you were awarded an OAM an Order of Australian Merit for your services to charitable organisation and to veterans.

It sounds like you’ve had quite a long history or quite a strong passion and background and supportive of your communities let’s say because not just your local community but your sailing community, which kind of spans all of Australia and more. What is it that’s driven you to contribute like this to these types of organisation?

KEN THACKERAY: This is SICYC thing was something that took us totally by surprise and look, I’m very grateful to receive the Order of Australia but at the same time, it’s just been a journey of great experience, enthusiasm with some wonderful people and it’s not been a burden at all. It’s just something that evolved and is more or less enriched my life and my wife’s life as well.

So it’s something that we have to make sure that we have a transition plan for, but it was good and the work with veterans, I was a Vietnam Veteran and I worked for a long time as an advocate for veterans who were having problems through DVA but in fact, it was The Prostate Cancer Foundation of Australia I think that were the driving force behind the Order of Australia and I think it was a signal too to people that SICYC wasn’t a joke.

That all of a sudden they thought, “Well, maybe there is some essence in this organisation.” So I think it was for the first time where some of the organisation that looked at us as being something trifling that would come and go, all of a sudden realise that, “Hey, it’s here to stay.” So whilst it was an award that I received, I think it was a recognition of what SICYC people were doing across the boating community and I think it’s incredibly important.

OSP: It’s a really, really great example and quite a unique example of people who are passionate about what they do and the things that have evolved naturally and that people enjoy it. It’s almost like it’s not an effort, its happened as a byproduct. You can set up an organisation and set out to do all sorts of things including raising money, but it can be hard work and you can struggle to get support, but you’ve got a great model, you’ve got a great group of people and this is a byproduct of them enjoying what they do.

KEN THACKERAY: You’ve heard the way they communicate, there’s no essence of conservatism in the thing. The people have got a smile on their face and when you look around the people, you look into their eyes, you look at their faces, they’ve got a smile on their face and enjoying themselves and you’ve got to contribute to that and have that cup half full approach to the organisation and to cruising in itself. There’s so many negative things in life anyhow that you can’t avoid and I think that’s the good thing about SICYC. They’re good fun people. They might be exclusively non-exclusive and that makes them even more important to society.

OSP: Well and it’s a great environment. There’s a lot of fun that happens on the water. A lot of your problems get behind when you leave land and so how long have you been sailing? When did you start?

KEN THACKERAY: 1986 I had a trailer sailer and I used to go up to the Whitsundays on an annual basis when I had leave and then I started sailing more regularly in about ’92 and then I had a divorce in the early 90’s and I decided to retire young and I single-handed for about 11 years and Rhonda and I just got together about nine years ago and Rhoda had been interested in the water.

And so it’s been a nice bonding thing for Rhonda and I and our relationship too, because Rhonda always says to me as she would wake up in the morning, “Is today an SICYC free day?” Because as long as we’ve been together we’ve had SICYC as the third partner in our relationship.

OSP: How much time do you put into SICYC?

KEN THACKERAY: It’s seasonal, yeah I’m very easy now. Next week, I go to Airlie Beach and we’re doing a ball and it’s going to take a fair bit of organising but it is going to be probably the most elegant ball that Airlie Beach has ever had and we’ve got huge sponsorship with people providing food, catering services, grog, the facility itself and it’s coming together at the same time as the rendezvous.

But by now, we’re in a situation where if we haven’t got it done, well it is just not going to be done. So it’s this period from about January through to the end of the May I guess that is really bad. So Rhonda and I generally get up to Airlie Beach in late June and we work through until the rendezvous is over and then we sail for two months, and go and hide somewhere.

OSP: That’s nice. Yeah that’s nice. Yeah, that’s really nice. Well what I’m going to do Ken is I’m going to, when I publish this, I’ll publish the show notes on the website as well on OceanSailingPocdast.com and I’ll put all the links in there to your site, the details that link to the site, the blog, the Facebook page and to the skipr.net site as well because I’m sure we’ll get a lot of interest in this.

KEN THACKERAY: It’s good for the people generally because there is an open side to skipr.net and some organisations just have their own page and we have our own page because we are what we are. But I’d recommend it to anybody whether they are associated with SICYC people or not and you don’t have to be a member of SICYC to go onto it.

OSP: Right, I didn’t realise that, okay.

KEN THACKERAY: No, you can just do it and what it will do is introduce you to the association and like all of our aspects of our organisation today, there were people that weren’t members enjoying the thing and saying I’m going home to join and of course, that’s all we’ve got to offer. We don’t really need to have to kid and cajole people if they’re only going to turn up once.

OSP: That’s right.

KEN THACKERAY: That’s not going to break the bank.

OSP: You’re right, I know from the Southport Yacht Club I’ve heard anecdotally about your club for a couple of years now but I have never really understood it until just recently, but I know that there’s a number of disappointed sailors that this year are doing Hamilton Island Race week and of course it clashes for I think the first time that had…

KEN THACKERAY: No, no it’s always been except for last year. It’s always been at the same time and last year, we were successfully able to ask them to push back a week, but they had some sponsorship problem this year and they didn’t. But nevertheless, the biggest flotilla we’ve ever had was 240 yachts and we had that on a weekend that was Audi Hamilton Island Race Week anyhow. So we’re different fish really, we’re a different fish in the pond.

About eight years ago, one of our guys won the Audi Hamilton Island Race Week and he was sailing on a Dufour 38 and he worked out that he could have won his division and then they got frightfully drunk and went off to the Hamilton Island Tavern and the security people said, “You’ve got to come back, you’ve got to come back, you’ve got to come back. They won the Audi.” Still to this day, he can’t remember picking up the keys.

OSP: Wow?

KEN THACKERAY: So when they do the sail past, they wear their blue shirts and salute with closed fists as they go past them. They still carry on but it’s the biggest boating event in the Whitsundays now. It has more boats and admittedly it’s not racing, but they have more boats participate SICYC than at Airlie Beach Race Week or Hamilton Island Race Week. In fact two years ago we have more boats than both of them put together.

OSP: Which is significant when you think about it and it means whether you’re going north to go racing or going north to go cruising, there’s something for everybody right? It’s just a great backdrop.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah and it’s taken a while for clubs, all sorts of clubs to sort of get used to us because we’re not a club in a normal sense. Like we don’t have a club house, we don’t have any staff, we don’t have marina berths, we don’t have moorings, we don’t have anything else but we’re a fully insured, incorporated body and so even getting public liability insurance was difficult because there wasn’t just the paper cut out policy.

OSP: Of course.

KEN THACKERAY: So they have created a policy for us.

OSP: Yeah, you’re a virtual club, but the reality is you have a larger membership base and you gather more people together and you raise more for charity than probably 95% of clubs worldwide. So it is quite a significant achievement.

KEN THACKERAY: Yeah. Yeah I know it is.

OSP: Okay, well I know that, I’ve had to tear you away from the SICYC’s seven year birthday party and you’ve got a bunch of members here today that are wanting to spend more time with you, so thank you Ken for giving up your time, I really appreciate that and I’m sure that with what we’re going to be sharing with information about what you do, we can send a whole bunch of people your way, so they can enjoy what SICYC has to offer.

KEN THACKERAY: We’re always after people that can help the process for prostate cancer although our main aim isn’t the fund raising. It’s now become significant because so many of our members are being treated and really guys are a bit silly. They don’t get their tests and things like that, so if anybody would like to contribute in that way too, it’s much appreciated.

OSP: And just on a health note, when should you start getting tests? What age if you’re a guy?

KEN THACKERAY: Well, distinguished Professor Judith Clemens is here today and she was saying to me that guys are getting diagnosed now in their 40’s. So she was saying if you’ve got a family history or something like that and you’re early to mid-40’s, you should be getting your PSA test and the way I look at it if you’re smart, you’re get a blood test once a year anyhow and the PSA is just another part of the test. So if you go in, you’re silly if you don’t just add the PSA test to it.

OSP: Yeah and if you get early diagnosis, what’s the chances of success?

KEN THACKERAY: Like any of it, the remedial action might be minimal but in a lot of cases, guys just let it go and when the symptoms start, it might become obvious, it’s often a little bit too late. So yeah but anyhow, that’s all we can do.

OSP: Thanks Ken, all the best. It was great to meet you, and I look forward to seeing you on the water some time.

Interviewer: David Hows

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Episode 6 & 7: Peter Montgomery Show Notes

Peter Montgomery: The Voice of Yachting

If you enjoyed episodes 6 and 7 and want to read more about Peter Montgomery, his book is available with by clicking on the book cover or title below:

Peter Montgomery: The Voice of Yachting

Table of Contents:

Peter Montgomery: The Voice of Yachting

1. A Yachting Bolt from the Blue (Plus PJ's Top Ten Sailors)

2. A True Blue Southerner (Plus PJ's ten favourite sports people)

3. Broadcasting Natural (Plus PJ's Best known Sayings)

4. The Three Worst Days of My Life (Plus PJ's ten most memorable Yachting Events)

5. Into the America's Cup Cauldron (Plus PJ on Chris Dickson)

6. The Olympic Dream (Plus PJ's Ten Best Sporting Events)

7. The America's Cup is Now New Zealand's Cup (Plus PJ on Peter Blake)

8. Mixing with the Stars (Plus PJ's Favourite All Blacks)

9. The America's Cup is still New Zealand's Cup (Plus PJ on Russell Coutts)

10. The Grant Dalton Saga

11. (Plus PJ on Dean Barker)

12. Family Man; List of PJ achievements

Peter Montgomery Show Notes

OSP: Hi Peter, welcome along this morning Peter to the Ocean Sailing Podcast and thanks for joining me today. Peter is the voice and personality that’s touched my life many times over the past 30 years, it’s truly a privilege to have the opportunity to talk with you on the Ocean Sailing podcast and a couple of months back now I read your biography, Peter Montgomery the voice of yachting.

Peter Montgomery with Russell Coutts and Grant Dalton

Literally it was one of those scenarios where I picked up your book and it brought back so many memories from earlier in my life and I think I mentioned to you in the email, I was at a technology conference that I’d paid to be at and I started reading your book on the plane from Brisbane to Sydney and I ended up sitting at the conference reading your book all day and not paying attention to the presenters. So I guess as the voice of New Zealand Yachting for over three decades now and you’ve covered all of the major events including nine American Cups, nine Olympic games, and all nine Volvo and Whitbread races.

So I really want to talk to you today on three different topics. Firstly, your broadcasting career and distinguished background. A few questions on some America’s Cup related stuff but nothing controversial and a couple of questions on Peter Montgomery who is another person who has influenced my life tremendously. Jumping straight into broadcasting, where did your appetite for broadcasting come from?

PETER MONTGOMERY: I’ve been fascinated with broadcasters from a very young age and growing up in a Otago in Dunedin. I used to listen to a lot of sports broadcasters, notably rugby and other sports as in when they arrive, whether it was Olympic sports or cricket and even horse racing. Much to the dismay of my mother, I was fascinated particularly with horse race commentators and how they were able to say so much in so little time.

Meaning, the final straight, often races were exciting and how they were able to pull words out of nowhere to match the action in front of them. I thought that was a challenge and an art, well become quite fascinated to the point that when I got into my teams, I really often listened to many sports and particularly Australia race commentators.

Craig Fry, Bill Collins, Cam Howe, the list goes on and there’s some very good ones now too but they were just so colorful, so descriptive and they had a furlong or X number of seconds to say what they were going to or they had to. You had a word picture in those days, a lot of it was still on radio not on television. So I get it that television is to enhance the picture in front of you as opposed to radio is to give you a word picture.

Peter Montgomery with Bruno Trouble

So from a very young age, I was always fascinated with broadcasters and I enjoyed when I came to Auckland when I was about 20 — 19, 20, I came to Auckland for a year which proved to be the longest year in my mother’s life because I never went back to Dunedin and Otago. Through an old school friend that had gone to King’s in Dunedin, Bill McCarthy, had made a full time career in sport broadcasting. I used to see him regularly.

We were good friends when we were at school and then he went broadcasting in Australia and then came back to New Zealand and was transferred to go to Auckland. So we hooked up and we saw a lot of each other and on Friday nights we would go to the Royal International Hotel with a lot of his broadcasting careers and I just loved it to be able to mix with Bob Irvine, the current rugby commentator nationally across New Zealand or Howard Richards, a very prominent cricket commentator, and so the list goes on. From those beginnings of one being fascinated with broadcasting and two, just mixing with these guys, it was through Bill who opened the door that gave me an opportunity really to live the dream.

Peter Montgomery on television in 1973

OSP: Okay, it’s really interesting because you’re one of the few if not the only person I’ve come across where you’ve really developed this unique ability to articulate sailing and really made an art form of your ability to articulate it. But at two different levels because as a sailor, I learned a lot more about sailing as a result of your educational commentary. But then I know so many people who never understood sailing at all but due to the engaging commentary that you delivered, not only learned a lot about sailing as lay people but really became to love it.

It always struck me that so much preparation must have gone in to the delivery of what you delivered as a commentator, the preparation around, and all the Peter Montgomeryisms that you became famous for, it always struck me a lot of work must have gone in the background into preparing to deliver what you delivered over the years and a lot of people will probably take it for granted the preparation and research that goes into it, they probably assume you just turn up on the day and deliver immaculately and on time and have no appreciation. How much preparation did go, or does go into delivering the type of commentary you did and such a colorful and articulate way?

Bill McCarthy New Zealand Commentator and mentor to Peter Montgomery

PETER MONTGOMERY: On the very first day I started broadcasting, Bill McCarthy said to me, “Never ever forget you’re talking to the little old lady with a blue rinse hairdo and white tennis shoes in Riverton. Now some folk may not know where Riverton is but it’s actually further south than Invercargill. It’s a remote seaside village right in the bottom of New Zealand. I never forgot that and I still haven’t forgotten it and to the broadcasting I even do today, that little old lady is still my number one listener.

Because I figured very early on that if I could translate a lot of the gobbledygook on sailing and take people with me. She was my listener rather than the know it all aficionado on the Auckland Waterfront of West Haven, who often couldn’t be told anything anyway. I think that was a very important point and then came other issues right at the start that if I say someone bowled a googly and took us off stump or he’s hitting to covers or to gulley or he chips out of a bunker. The point is, cricket and golf commentators use their jargon all the time whether people, or not, understand it.

Peter out over the ocean in a plane trying to pick up Steinlager 2's Peter Blake on the radio

To a degree, that happens now if you look at a big rugby league game or rugby game and definitely an AFL game, those key commentators are definitely talking about the ruck ball or whatever the phase might be. To me, I spoke to Bill McCarthy about it, we agreed that it was important to stay to the integrity of the sport, but not to be patronising to the little old lady in Riverton and other people who really were only aware of sailing as a passing interest, to the aficionado know it all sailors who know everything.

Peter Montgomery in action at the Auckland Viaduct

So there was a balance to try and blend all that in what we were doing. Then comes the other issue in terms of the expressions. Well yes, I think I was definitely influenced by other broadcasters and would be some from the northern hemisphere, but principally from the people I told you about and the brilliant race horse commentators who were able to say so much and they might have 17 or 18 seconds over the time of furlong. Very close race, it could go to a finish and how do you described all that?

Some of that would be phrases and then comes the question whether or not they were noted, whether or not they had written them down because sometimes when you try and pull those out, then it becomes wooden and heavy. “I’ve got this phrase, ha ha, listen to me.” The question is, when you pull them out and how you do it. So I suppose some of those Peter Montgomeryisms just the way I’ve been speaking with friends for a long time anyway. With hopefully a sense of humour and fun as part of it.

Peter Montgomery has covered the last 12 Americas Cups

OSP: It certainly came across as off the cuff and completely natural in your delivery, it was never wooden so you were right on the money in terms of the way that you delivered it and it really has been incredible. I think a question I have is, when you sit back now and you sit back and you look out over the harbour and you think about the last three to four decades, can you even comprehend the legacy that you’ve actually created personally for both, not just the industry but the country as a whole?

You’ve created legacy that would not be there in the entirety that it is today from the love and following of sailing and I think the way that our sailing industry continues to be held in high regard globally is partly the sailors we have coming through and the people that support those sailors and then the industries that wrap around setting, your contribution’s been significant. So can you comprehend it? Do you think about that at all?

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well I do sit down and think of a legacy or whatever but I am aware of people coming up to me and inevitably they want to tell me something, “I met you somewhere or I heard you somewhere.” Not just with all the key of the entire settings of May 1995 as in the America’s Cup is now the New Zealand’s cup, or other things that we’ve done particularly in the Whitbread races, the Volvo races, and also some Olympic regattas as well.

Chris Bouzaid with Rainbow II in the background

So yes, I am aware that people start talking about that but I was thinking the other day that actually a couple of weeks ago I was cruising in Fiordland that’s as remote as it was when captain Cook first went there and it’s breath taking and beautiful but there’s just nothing, it’s a wilderness. On board the vessel I was cruising was one Chris Bouzaid.

OSP: Right, wow.

PETER MONTGOMERY: Who really changed New Zealand’s sailing a lot. Yes, the New Zealand had had two Olympic gold medals, 1956, Peter Mander and Jack Cropp and then later in 1964, Helmer Pedersen and Earle Wells winning in Tokyo. Mander and Cropp won in Melbourne 1956. In another generation Mander would have been as significant or as impressive as Coutts or Burling or you name whoever you want to name. Mander was special.

But they really never left a legacy, they were small boats in Olympic regattas and while they were significant and well noted, it didn’t have a roll on effect, if you like as opposed to Bouzaid and Rainbow II, that was the first campaign on the other side of the world where one, you had to ship the boat and two, then get all the backup whether getting it was in containers or how it was delivered.

Rainbow II in action on Auckland Harbour

There was much more to sailing than sailing on your bottom from Auckland to Sydney for The Sydney Hobart which they won in 1967 or sailing to Noumea and then back to New Zealand. There had been other New Zealand vessels like the The Davis, Jim Davin taking the line honours in The Sydney Hobart 1966 and so that had been done but not on the other side of the world and Bouzaid had a crack in ’68 and got a very close second and that motivated him and his outstanding crew to go back in ’69 and have a go. They won the One Ton Cup.

In those days, that was the America’s Cup for New Zealand. They defended it in 1971 and although I’d started broadcasting in 1970, you flattered me with only three decades I note. So 1970 October, later weekend, the World OK Dinghy Championships were held. I thought that would be just a one off broadcasting but then I was invited to do the One Ton Cup which included in New Zealand One Ton Cup trials and we were on, we were all on New Zealand Navy Frigates and it was a big deal.

New Zealand printed postage stamps for the One Ton Cup in Auckland in 1971

Because of a few quirks like wet weather across New Zealand and the National Athletics Championship being postponed or canceled because of the awful rain, that meant that there was only almost one event on two radio networks and that was the One Ton Cup, we got an awful lot of more air time than was originally planned. That was the start for me and I, there was a huge reaction from the broadcasting management that about our broadcasting commentaries which was flattering to a point but I think really bluntly, all of a sudden they were getting inquiries from companies that were not in their catchment. Could they start advertising? Like Epiglass marine paint as an example, many marine or maritime activities just weren’t advertising in broadcasting all of a sudden I think it the bosses saw, “Wow, here’s an opening.”

So anyway, things started off for me and then we started broadcasting right through the 70’s and 80’s on events like the One Ton Cup trials, trials for the Southern Cross and then came the Admiral’s Cup leading up to the first Admiral’s Cup Challenge in ‘75. Then came the Dunhill Cup, which was modeled on the Southern Cross Cup or the Kenwood Cups if you like and so we were out over the Hauraki Gulf up to the Bay of Islands down to the Bay of Plenty, weekend after weekend and what I was thinking, this is a very long answer.

OSP: That’s okay.

PETER MONTGOMERY: But what I was thinking was Chris was sitting down and we were chatting and I thought, “God, we’ve done a hell of a lot of stuff,” and much of that didn’t even get a mention or an acknowledgement in the biography Bill Francis wrote and simply because we’ve moved on to quite obviously the prime time events of world sailing, the America’s Cup, the Whitbread, now Volvo and Olympic sailing is the big three things which I’ve been lucky to go to. As you have touched on, what is it? Nine Olympics and 11 America’s Cups and all 12 Whitbread Volvo’s.

Peter Blake's Steinlager 2 in the Whitbread Race, the only boat to ever win every single race leg

Sadly, a lot of the other events where we had a lot of fun, were over looked but I do get the thought probably and people still bring it up that covering all those events I’ve just talked about, One Ton trials, Southern Cross Cup trials and the Dunhill Cup and the Admiral’s Cup trials, they were off shore racing and in those days there was no Twitter or Facebook and it was just radio. Well, there was television of course as well but we were doing regular updates and the broadcasting in those days wasn’t the personality driven radio now where you’ve got to have a host with an opinion to provoke calls and talk back and all of that stuff.

So we were doing regular updates just of broadcasting and commentary and sadly the way things have evolved with technology, social media, and also the way radio is developed now which is modelled on what’s happening in Australia or other parts of the world, there just won’t be another Peter Montgomery. Because the chances I had just don’t exist any longer. That is sad I think but you can’t dwell on it because then you think oh you’re living in the past and it’s not like it used to be and we know all that, and things do change and some things have changed for the better, I love IT and I love technology by the way and I couldn’t live without my apps but it’s amazing in the last 10 years how my life has changed with my iPhone and iPad. But anyway, I am aware but not to the flattering point that you put it.

High tech graphics have dramatically changed yacht racing coverage for spectators

OSP: Okay, it’s interesting. I’m just going to just jump ahead slightly here Peter but you’ve touched on a really neat interesting point which I wanted to raise with you and that is how broadcasting’s changed. We seem to have morphed from technology enhancing broadcasting to almost to the point now where I watch the recent AC 45’s in Oman, almost feels so formulaic now and some of the colour in character’s gone out of the broadcasting because of the scale and window it’s fitting into.

I think we’ve gone backwards. There seems to be a loss of technical expertise in the commentary and there are in the US, I was watching the Oman commentary, three or four occasions, the commentators talked about kilometres per hour and then corrected themselves and jumped back to knots. If you’re a sailor, you never talk in kilometres per hour in terms of both speed and so I kind of feel that we’ve had this crossover point where we see technologies enhanced the experience but now the tradeoff has been the quality and depth of the commentary. Is that a feeling you share at all?

Emirates Team New Zealand in action in Americas Cup foiling catamarans capable of 40+ knots (75 km/h+)

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well with your question, you’re provoking about 10 different issues there. So with America’s Cup racing, now going under 20 minutes, supposedly television driven, which television companies have not been by the product. Just this week I read a note that was on Scuttlebutt, one of the websites, someone saying, “So the America’s Cup doesn’t exist in Spain any longer.” And I was speaking to an Italian journalist a couple of days ago and he was saying that the profile in Italy now is little to nothing.

So this business of sort of having the instant gratification of the McDonalds Society that the people’s attention spans are no longer than 20 minutes is an insult. Yes I agree that racing at Newport, Rhode Island are now at Fremantle, some of the races were three hours or longer and that was too long, far too long. I mean we’re not going to look back at the good old days because some of them were boring processions. I think if you had for about an hour’s duration, whether or not they should be in catamarans or big 90 foot RC44’s on steroids or Volvo inshore boats with swing keels or because you’re still missing so much that when you reflect on the regatta’s from Fremantle and San Diego also in ’95 and then Auckland 2000 to 2003, Valencia ’07, the boats coming in from the starboard or port end of the line and going into the dial up, that was a maritime game of chess.

Team New Zealand in action in the Americas Cup in the monohull era

The mental ability of the after guards, not just the skippers and their crews to outwit each other and then win the start really was something. Then there were often a lot of close races as we evidenced here in Auckland in the America’s Cup of 2000 and 2003. But I think about it now, 50 minutes to an hour would be good, but under 20 minutes, what you’re happening here is the boat’s just high up, wow they’ve started, wang. In the great town of Bermuda, I know Bermuda very well and have commentated there often in the Bermuda’s Gold Cup. It is a wonderful place, there are great people and yes the beaches really salmon pink by the way. But the great sound for these boats after they start, they’ve got to tack about 90 seconds after, at most two minutes.

Well bang, they start, win start, tack, boom, top marks, slam bam thank you ma’am, it’s all over. So you do wonder what they’re saying and one of the things I would note from a man is that the advance in technology has got outstanding audio off the boats but that really has been from about 1995 on and improved every year and it’s brilliant audio and the trick for the broadcasters is to know who is speaking and to expand and enhance. In other words, let the sailors do a lot of the commentary and you need a couple of guys in the commentary booth who are translating and enhancing what they’re saying rather than just for the non-sailors listening to more sailing jargon or so on, you can do that now. I mean the outstanding graphics that have been developed by a group in Dunedin of all places.

Bermuda home of the Americas Cup in 2017

But there’s some really bright, intelligent, nerdy blokes who went to Otago University and they could be working in America for NASA if they wanted to. But they happened to have married girls who want to stay in Otago and do whatever they do in central Otago and their horse riding and so these guys are based in Dunedin and those graphics have also enhanced for the initiated even, let alone the un-initiated because sailing is quite difficult. In the Olympics they’ve had different forms and some Danish system or whatever, there’s a lot of politics in all of that but all I know is these guys who have been involved in the American’s Cup have done an outstanding job and that really has helped a lot.

But yes it comes down to the broadcast and commentary and those commentators now have got a difficult job and it’s got to be different to the cups that I was involved in because you’ve got 20 minutes maximum, probably 18 minutes and you’ve got to talk New York headlines, you’ve got to give a summary try and also get the audio off the boat, what are they talking and translate that as well. So there is not now the opportunity for an expert analyst to start going on and on and on to fill in time as some of the excellent expert analysts that I had over the years with those.

Russell Coutts, the most successful Americas Cup sailor ever: dark horse and genius

Chris Law or Ed Baird and Buddy Melges, I mean we’ve had some brilliant people including Russell Coutts commentated in a couple of races in Valencia in ’07. I had Jimmy Spithill commentating the other races Russell couldn’t do. Both of them are outstanding. Coutts was quite outstanding but those sort of the insight of those excellent sailors now has got to be pruned down and modified a bit because the slam bam thank you nature of the race is under 20 minutes.

OSP: It’s almost like the perfect America’s Cup race used to be like a good movie, you could introduce the characters, you had time to build into the race, you had the challenges and the good versus the bad and then you had the finale and then the ending. That all fitted nicely into 75 minutes or 90 minutes but doesn’t fit into 20, so you just don’t have that kind of space anymore, do you?

PETER MONTGOMERY: Not only that but if I just mentioned Dennis Connor, Tom Blackaller, Buddy Melges and wide eyed young Chris Dickson and Harold Cudmore. I mean in Fremantle we had personalities and then you had the Alan Bonds against Kevin Parry’s and the people in the Bond camp up against the people in the Parry camp with Ian Murray and Peter Gilmore. I mean there was just so much happening with people in personalities that now a lot of that stuff has been knocked out of the mud. I say that because I’ve been in rugby commentary for a very long time as well.

Dennis Conner won the Americas Cup back in 1987 after losing it in 1983

The media prevention officers, some of the great All Black teams 20 years ago or whatever, went around and said you’re over to get coming from top rugby players All Blacks or whoever the visiting teams were, whether it was the Wallabies from Australia or very good teams from South Africa or from the northern hemisphere, and the players would say things.

Now, they’re almost on ropes and to a degree that’s happening in sailing as well. People are just, not scared, but they’re very aware and they don’t say anything. Compared to some of the stuff that Blackaller would drop a bomb and try to fire Dennis Conner up and often he did. I mean they’re all colourful people and I think in the end, if you look at whatever the persuasion might be in terms of if you’re following sport, what persuasion or football whether it’s Rugby League, Rugby Union or AFL or whether it’s football or somewhere else in the world, the key things you follow are people.

In a way, the America’s Cup with now down to six crew all with masks on and you can’t recognise them and some of them dress like the Michelin man and three of them don’t need to be sailors. They could be bodybuilders or rowers or whatever. It’s changed dramatically, really. My preference would be that we had boats that you could still — look, I get it because these boats are dangerous. We saw that in San Francisco 2013 and once the designers and engineers had time to talk about the 62’s proposed, they were going to be far too dangerous. Now we’ve got a boat under 50 feet, between 49 and 50 feet.

Firece Americas Cup rivals Dean Barker and Jimmy Spithill

Even they are going to be dangerous too. But my preference is to have a boat that you could see people’s faces and get people back into the equation. Now of course, you’ve got quite a lot of people who are in the loop. There’s a lot of self-interest as well and as Dennis Connor once said, when you go the races, always backs self interest, it’s always winning. So there are comments that may come out from the defenders or the cup organisers, when so much of it is self-interest as well. It’s just the way it’s gone and that’s what’s going to happen in Bermuda but it is not quite the same.

OSP: No and I guess the holder of the cup to some degree sets the tone and the culture as well if you look at how it’s evolved and particularly last 10 or 15 years.

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well the holder of the cup has always set the culture and I wouldn’t say it’s all been sweetness and light in the past. We haven’t got time now but aficionados would know that the New York Yacht Club definitely were tough people to deal with. They kept it for 132 years. Now part of it was on merit because they had very good sponsors and patrons and then whether it was JP Morgan or Vanderbilt, whoever you want to name and a brilliant designer and in Hereshoff or Olo Steven’s. So there was a lot of good things but also though, some of the people in the New York Yacht Club were very, very difficult and really was couched that the cup stays here and then finally that mould was broken.

The New York Yacht Club held and defended the Americas Cup for 132 years

Probably I think out of Perth, under Dr. Stan Reed, the Aussies were too fair and too nice and too generous and it was a fantastic regatta in Fremantle and transformed Fremantle. It was a grotty running down seaport, which is a beautiful place now. I mean the legacy is great but really Fremantle and Perth deserve one more go at it which Auckland had, and Valencia had although under some controversy.

The whole thing’s changed dramatically and yes there will be change. I mean you go and look at other sports whether it’s motor sport and the vehicles they might have driven in the 50’s or the 60’s to compared to what’s happening now. Of course there is going to be progression but even in formula one, as sterile as that might be, there’s no personalities and you do get the impression that the teammates, Luis Hamilton and his team mate, they don’t get on. I mean it adds to something rather than the sweetness in light you’re getting dished out the America’s Cup.

Peter Montgomery in San Francisco the Americas Cup in 2013 where Oracles comeback shocked everyone

OSP: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things Peter I’ve always found with your commentating style is clearly you’re a New Zealander, but you’ve always been balanced in your approach and I’ve always found it interesting that you’ve been able to communicate openly with opposing teams who often shared all sorts of things with you that historically they wouldn’t with most people. You seem to have this ability to find a balance and to build trust and to not be one sided in your views. Is that something you sort of actively or consciously focused on?

PETER MONTGOMERY: I think it’s just evolved over a period and during the 80’s, thanks to Cameron Lewis and one or two other people, I was invited to commentate on the Ultimate Yacht Race. There were a couple of guys from Fort Worth Texas, the Darden brothers who really had a vision and so the Yacht Race ended up being giant 18 foot skiffs, they were 30 foot boats but for the untrained eye from a distance, they look like 18 foot skiffs on steroids and there were some really, really prominent names there from around world sailing - a lot of the Americans. I was commuting to the US service six weeks to commentate whether it was in Milwaukee or San Francisco or on the East Coast. I got to know a lot of those guys very well and in an event like that, the tribal nationalism was taken out of it really because we’re commentating the over picture and some of those things helped and then from ’91 till about 07 -

’08 I went to Bermuda to commentate the Bermuda Gold Cup, so again I had the opportunity over the years to getting a lot of the competitors as well and then subsequently I commentated the Swedish Match Cup from the mid-90’s for about 10 years and then the Monsoon Cup. So at events like that, you do get to — after the racing, you may end up somewhere whether it’s in a bar or restaurant or something, you just get to know guys. So I think that part of the relationships that you just don’t build up overnight with Peter Pan and Wendy waving wands, quickly, it’s something that it’s slowly built up.

Muhammad Ali with Peter Montgomery after Peter's historic interview with him

Over the years I’ve been — my wife and I become very good friends, a lot of the people like Tom and Betsy Whidden, Tom Whidden sailed in six America’s cups, is the big boss of the north sails organisation but he won three America’s Cups with Dennis Conner. There are many other people as well that we got to know over the years. Then when it comes to commentating at the Olympics and the America’s Cup. Then I’m mindful about where is the broadcast going to? In contrast, I think it was the Olympics in ’04 and ’08 to help fund TV in New Zealand, they would broadcast well over a hundred countries through Asia or through Africa.

Therefore, you couldn’t necessarily be — not biased, and never used the word “we” as it were, but you had to be aware of who your audience were but say take the America’s Cup and many of the America’s Cups, the broadcast was only going to New Zealand. So I was then aware that the audience principally was hometown New Zealand. I still don’t like the idea of we this and so on, you need to be at arm’s length and sometimes you got to even ask the hard questions. I remember Peter Blake once ordered me off Lion New Zealand. He got furious with me talking about the hard bits of Lion that wasn’t up to it.

Lion New Zealand arriving in Hobart after completing Sydney to Hobart Race with Peter Blake, and Peter Montgomery in front from left to right

You’re still going to do that as a broadcast but it’s important to just try and work out where your audience is going to and they could be part of the problem now with the commentary you were talking about in the current AC45, where is it going? Is it generically across the world or who are they trying to talk to and that needs to be defined as well?

OSP: That’s a really good point. Me included, a lot of New Zealanders wouldn’t appreciate how much of our reputation you’ve developed as an international broadcaster and not just a New Zealand broadcaster, so I guess that’s really helped for you to find the balance based on, as you said, the audience you’re delivering to.

Peters early years commentating from an English navy helicopter

PETER MONTGOMERY: No I’ve been lucky. I was sad that the Ultimate Yacht Race failed — the guys who developed it had a brilliant idea but they just overstretched themselves like so many other, regattas around the world where people have got a good idea but where is the money coming because sailing is not a turnstyle sport and not a stadium sport.

I think that is something that also needs to be kept in mind with the evolution of what they’re trying to, these races made for television and whatever, who is doing it? I’m actually old enough to think back that in Fremantle, yes the American had and some really good teams involved. One of them Stars & Stripes, Dennis Conner and Tom Whidden, Billy Krinkle and co, went on to win it.

But there were others with America 2 and so on and Tom Blackhaller, there was quite a lot of interest and do you know at that stage, with some of the races not starting until 11 o’clock or midnight east coast time, it was more civilised on the Californian Pacific Coast starting at either 8 o’clock or 9 o’clock. They had ratings more in the NCA basketball contest at time. SoI think it’s important that you’re not going to compare sailing America’s Cup or Whitbread or whatever with football in that case or American Football, or their other big sports and it’s just nonsense to do that.

Peter Montgomery and Brendan Telfer at their first Olympics Montreal 1976

It’s a niche sport to a smaller market but that market can still be specific for a lot. They’re the sort of people who might be a bit, to use the cliché; “upwardly mobile” and so that’s why you’d see these expensive watches being advertised along side or whatever. In other words they have got the target audience who they have established are sailors, which is not all true because as you and I know, sailing is not all rich, wealthy and elite but in partly the image that can partly help fund those sorts of things.

OSP: That’s exactly right and I was talking to Rob Mundle at the South Yacht Club last week, we both sail out of there and despite the perceptions, 90% of people turn up for relatively little cost at all by sailing on somebody else’s boat and the image there that’s its only for the rich and the elite helps draw attention to it and controversy and everything else.

PETER MONTGOMERY: That’s right, absolutely yeah.

OSP: When you look at your broadcasting career and I guess Keith Quinn and Brendan Telfer, you all had incredible longevity as broadcasters and you’ve all covered close to 10 Olympic Games. Were there common traits amongst the three of you that have helped you achieve this longevity?

At the completion of London 2012, Peter Montgomery, Brendan Telfer and Keith Quinn had covered nine Olympics Games

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well I think probably that our timing was right. That the people knew now that batting's going, things will change in the next 10, 20 years because of technology and other things and media companies merging and becoming digital. Will there be as many print journalists or the traditional broadcasting journalists? So much of the emphasis now to get into broadcasting, the path that I'd follow, it just doesn't exist. You have to go to broadcast school now and in effect, there are young broadcasters that they're news journalists and they just are a factory turning out bulletins hour after hour and if they're lucky an opening might come up in other areas of broadcasting, whether it's hosting a program and/or doing commentary.

But it's not quite as open or, well it's different and so we were lucky. We were there at the right time. Keith and Brendan, and John McBeth. I mean they're all broadcasters of the old fashioned kind, having been brought up with broadcasters of a previous generation. And some of those standards all rubbed off as well. And those standards would apply to well known broadcasters with longevity in Australia or in the UK or America, anywhere. Well in Germany too, it doesn't matter. Whatever the language that those guys - but yeah we've been lucky. We've all been to nine Olympics and I've been lucky also doing other things. I don't know how many Rugby World Cups Keith Quinn's been to and Brendan follows golf closely. I mean they've been to other big events as well.

Peter Montgomery interviews All Black Captain Richie after has final test match

The other prime time events that I've been lucky to be involved with, well I've done every Whitbread and Volvo. I was in Sydney when the fleet arrived from Cape Town in 1973. Then the Whitbread fleet that lost a couple of blokes over board, but they weren't really given a very good welcome in Sydney because I think some of the key traditionalists saw them as a challenge to the beloved Sydney Hobart. So the next race then came to Auckland instead of Sydney, which made sense anyway. And then the Whitbread became the Volvo - so I've been lucky to be around at a lot of these things.

All those America's Cups and, well the first America's Cup I went to was Newport, Rhode Island in 1980 when Australia challenged Freedom and boy it changed dramatically. Well really a bomb went under it when Allan Bond and his team in Australia II won in September '83 and then the Aussies put on an outstanding defence in the Fremantle aided by an incredible place to sail, out on Gauge Roads. I mean it was white caps and wet decks every day. A Fremantle doctor arrived every day at 1 o'clock. I think there was one or two days only when as Buddy Melges put, "Ah the nurse has arrived today, not the doctor."

Peters first Americas Cup: Australia vs Freedom in New York 1980

But it's just a fantastic place to sail and the spectacular coverage of that time. Yes I know they'd be happy, easier now with drones and all technology, but Channel 7 used their race cam that they were starting to use in Bathurst. It's got a lot more sophisticated certainly. Channel 9 had their blimps, but all the Australian broadcasters all merged together to Channel 10 and ABC. They did a fantastic job and then the cup went to San Diego and then coming to Auckland. So it's continued to improve and things have changed but then of course after Oracle came in and took the Cup away and it's gone into multihulls and there really is a bomb under it now.

So we've got the attention span of, assuming the people can't think for longer than 18 minutes or watch something for longer, you know it's got to be instant gratification, slam bam thank you ma'am. I know the sailing community is better than that. 

OSP: The public are too I think too, they would go through further evolution. I spoke to someone who recently attended an event in Auckland where Richie McCaw spoke on the attributes of leadership and how that had underpinned the All Blacks' World Cup Success. Sir Michael Fay was at that event and was invited to speak and Sir Michael commented to the audience that if his team knew some of the leadership attributes that Richie spoke of that they probably would have won the America’s Cup back in 1987 when they first challenged.

KZ7 racing in New Zealand's first ever Americas Cup Challenge in Fremantle, Australia 1987

When I spoke to Rob Mundle last week, he talked of the Aussie’s ability to play the psyche game on Dennis Connor in 1983 and get them off guard over covering up their keel and the hype built around that.

Chris Dickson, New Zealand Americas Cup Skipper in 1987

It seems Australians have this natural ability to get under your skin and if you look at how they sledge heavily in cricket as though that's just a normal part of playing the game. My question for you is, how much of coming up short against Stars & Stripes in 1987 was due to team New Zealand's leadership on or off the boat, versus some of the psyche games that were completely new to us and I recall back then we were called cheats for building a fiberglass boat, we had holes drilled in our hull to prove we had not broken the rules and it seemed that too created a big distraction as well. What are your thoughts around that?

Check out the first New Zealand's 1987 Cup Challenge Song here

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well I don’t think that there's any doubt that the mind games got the better of the New Zealand challenge. It wasn’t called Team New Zealand then. Yes the New Zealanders had two Lloyd’s inspectors, following the construction of those boats and they did everything well. Tom Whidden, who I’ve got to know well, about two years ago told me that one day he was driving Dennis Connor through Fremantle and he said, "I’m really worried about those Kiwi's, they got an excellent boat that’s been very well sailed. We’ve got to rattle their cage somehow."

Michael Fay's failed monohull vs. catamaran Cup Challenge in 1988

Dennis was driving and he said, "Okay, yup." And left it at that and the conversation moved on to another subject. The next night at the press conference, Tom Blackaller had made some provocative comment and then Dennis Connor said, "Well there have been 73 aluminum boats built, why would you want to build one in fiberglass unless you wanted to cheat?" And then Blackaller goes, "I don’t think I ever said that." Now, Tom Whidden had sown a seed with Dennis of his concerns, Dennis clearly had thought about it overnight and really came out of left field with a real lefty and put a bomb under it.

What it did was that Dennis was tongue in cheek and Michael Fay was so indignant that his integrity and the New Zealanders integrity had been challenged, they took their eye off the ball. I know for certain that just recently, Ron Holland was here and Ron was saying that the three designers, Bruce Bar, Laurie Davidson and Ron had seriously urged Michael to get a heavier keel on the boat. The problem was that KZ7 had had 38 wins and one loss, so why change a winning formula?

Team New Zealand and Peter Montgomery help create a sailing obessessed nation

Well, the New Zealanders learned a lot from that America’s Cup and the first and most important thing they learned from Dennis Connor was, the America’s Cup is a game of change. So if you may remember, Stars & Stripes squeaked in, struggled to get into the final four, they were nearly eliminated by White Crusader, the British challenge. Anyway, they got to the final four and then they changed. They had a heavier keel that could cope with the heavier conditions. Yes the day after KZ7 was eliminated the wind dropped and the next week, it was tailor made to the configuration the New Zealanders had but it didn’t suit them at the time.

Really, I think the management of the New Zealand challenge was dysfunctional, really that Michael Fay and his management team on shore weren’t really connecting with Chris Dickson and his team and I think it then comes to the sail issues that I think some of the New Zealanders, I know Simon Daubney proposed something to do with sails and as Brad Butterworth said to me not long ago, "Well if they would have listened to Simon Daubney on the development of sails and not Bruce Farr, that would have won.

Team New Zealand wins the Americas Cup in 1995

So the point is, here's a couple of comments from guys really close to Ron Holland and Brad Butterworth all these years later, yes, they could have and should have but they learned and the lesson, the other key thing that they learned from Dennis Conner was, not only is this the America’s Cup a game of change, Dennis was outstanding in leading. It was a big lesson for the New Zealanders, that they took on board and really applied from 1995 on. "Don’t dream about things you haven’t got," meaning, "Oh god, wouldn’t it be great to have another six weeks when you got six days?" And, don’t dream about "wouldn’t it be great if you had another six million dollars and you’ve only got $600,000." What you’ve got is the time you’ve got, to work to and the money you’ve got in the bank to spend and Dennis Connor was just quite brilliant in his campaigns like that.

Dennis may not like it but his legacy was definitely picked up by the New Zealanders and that was a key factor in terms of the brilliant success that they had in 1995, where really Dennis Connor as a sailor - that had a lot of input as well. Before that, there was so many designers and you could go back to old Steven’s and go back to Herreshoff and so many and Sir Tomas Sopwith and the designers he had, I mean, they should have won that cup in what was it 1932? But the end result is that often the designers would ordain the patron backing each challenge with their design and there was no input from the sailors.

Sir Michael Fay got New Zealand into the game

The truth is, a lot of yachties or sailors have got a lot of clues, a lot of practical experience and they hadn’t been listened to you. Dennis Connor dragged that out and that’s exactly what the New Zealanders learned from those lessons. So yes, they could have and should have, I agree with Rob Mundle and he was there ringside to it all as well and yes I'm mad. I mean I know he’s passed away now and I know Allan Bond gets a lot of credit for it. He went to the fourth challenge but the other guy who’s passed away who masterminded that was Warren Jones. Warren Jones was so quick on his feet, he was quite brilliant. There were a lot of other good people behind the scenes but it was Warren Jones that really upset the New York Yacht Club.

OSP: Fascinating. Really, really fascinating and it's almost seemed an evolution of styles as well, with Michael Fay and Chris Dickson, I think one of the catch phrases in the early days in the 1986/87 was Michael Fay’s golden rule was "I’ve got the gold so I rule" and we saw a different leadership style with Michael Fay and with Chris Dickson to what evolved with Sir Peter Blake. I think in the late 90’s I read the book Team Think, Team New Zealand and it was all about developing responsible leaders within the team that owned their area of the boat.

So the sailors drove feedback to the sail makers, to the people laying out the deck on the boat and where the equipment all went. And it’s interesting because if you look at this style of Sir Graham Henry and Steve Hanson, they built an All Blacks team with multiple leaders. I think they had seven within the team that owned their part of what their part of the team did on the field rather than having one coach and one leader.

Peter Blake - one of New Zealand's favourite sons

It’s almost like if you look where we are today with what happened post San Francisco in 2013, I wonder if Team New Zealand’s gone a lot more back to that original style of one leader, one voice and a more, I don’t know if ‘dictatorial’ is the right word but a less democratic style of leadership in terms of how they manage, today versus that cycle they went through from the late 80’s into the mid 90’s under Sir Peter Blake then what's happened since. Do you have any sort of thoughts or observations around that? I'm not trying to put you on the spot either.

PETER MONTGOMERY: You’ve touched a hornet's nest there with so many different threads and strings. Yes Michael Fay was young at the game and he would have done things differently and I think if Dickson had been another 10 years older, he would approach things differently because as he’s got older, he’s got more experience and mellowed as well but there is no doubt that when Blake set it up, they had a certain budget they could work to.

Sir Michael Fays KZ1 - the 130 foot 1988 Americas Cup Challenger

They had specific people in and I know the beautiful deck layout actually came from three to four of the sailors. So much of the advances, the flat top main sail that came from Warwick Fleury and Simon Daubney. The sailors actually have got a few clues if they are listened to and there can be some input. Now I know in 1995 in a meeting of designers, this is after the 1992 challenge, remember with the tandem keel and the bowsprit and the whole disaster. Coutts, who happened to be an engineer, he was the advocate for the sailors and he was in a meeting with the designers, Laurie Davidson and Doug Peterson and Tom Schnackenberg and quite a few of the other designers and the basically thread Coutts said was, "Give is a boat that’s equal and we’ll win."

Now that could sound arrogant but it was really more confident because over the previous five or six years, New Zealand sailors, notably Coutts and Dickson, had been winning world match racing championships and they were dominating. They also had a handle on the sailing big powerful boats, there were a lot of Whitbread sailors back in there and as it happened, we know that NZL32 was a good really lovely beautiful quick boat and they’re able to win just on sailing merit. So things evolved from there.

Yes, I mean, Grant Dalton has taken it up and his leadership and what he does and how he'd done it, perhaps it's a throwback rather than using a lot of the experience and I think it was disappointing after all that Dean Barker had done and how he was treated but anyway, he’s no longer there now and he’s moved on. Peter Burling and Blair Tuke are really outstanding. I would rate Burling at the very, very top level. In the time I’ve been around, I think that New Zealand's had a couple of really X factor genius sailors meaning Peter Mander and Russell Coutts. I would put Burling in that group who could join them. He is special.

Peter Montgomery talks with rising star Peter Burling

But in the end, in the America’s Cup game, he's still young, and he still doesn’t know what he doesn’t know and when it comes to development, the America’s Cup being sailed in May/June 2017 will actually be won in 2016 on the development of the foils that’s going on now. Burling and Tuke are on target for Rio 2016 in the 49er class. Silver medal at London 2012 and they've been unbeaten since from 24 or 25 regattas. Their odds on favourites to win and if they don’t win a gold medal then perhaps they’re taking their eye off the ball because of America’s Cup because it’s very difficult to dance and play in the orchestra at the same time. So yes the current leadership in terms of what’s happening, they’ll need to be aware of that so we’ll see.

OSP: Well it's a wait and see game that's for sure and certainly Peter Burling strikes me as one of a generation and for his youth in terms of what he's achieved to date, he’s got an illustrious career ahead. But that being said, you can be the best sailor but you've got to have a boat that is at least equal, don't you? As we saw in 2013, you can’t make up for boat speed in these cats on foils without at least being equal.

PETER MONTGOMERY: One thing will not change in 2017 in Bermuda, there was the saying, around Cowes of 1851 or whatever happened with Reliance out of 1903 out of New York and all of the races out of Newport, Rhode Island, and subsequently Fremantle, Auckland, San Diego and Valencia. "The fastest boat will win."

Yes, there’s a lot of one design elements now in these multihulls in America’s Cup, coming up in America’s Cup 35 in Bermuda 2017, but there’s still big advances to be made in those foils. Whatever the people are up to, there’s still a lot happening and Oracle’s onto their third boat and none of them can launch their new boats for America’s Cup 2017 until the 1st of January.

The reaching start in the Americas Cup foiling catamarans has replaced the upwind monohull start

Oracle’s allowed two, each challenger is only allowed one and Artemis is doing a lot of development, so are the Brits, I wouldn't underrate them either. So there’s still things going on and whoever does the most development on the foils will win the Cup next year.

OSP: That’s interesting. So in terms of the rules around the foils, I guess they are reasonably tight but there's room for the best developments to drive the outcome in terms of the Cup.

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well with foils, it's quite restricted on what they can develop and how they can go there now. It’s becoming more one design which, you know, we haven’t got time to talk about today and how that can be happening but these surrogate boats they’ve got now, Oracle are onto their third aren’t they. I mean the development they’re doing and what they’re doing, I wouldn’t underestimate.

OSP: Okay, so you’re one of those people that pop up regularly and I know that when we talk about the Americas Cup, my first experience was 1983 on a transistor radio in a classroom in Blenheim at Intermediate school listening to Australia win the Cup for the first time and then '87 came along and '88 and '92 and in '95, I lived in Christchurch, my first daughter has just been born.

Peter Montgomery in the thick of the celebrations after the Americas Cup 1995 final with Russell Coutts (left) and Sir Peter Blake

When you delivered that perfectly timed, now famous finale in the final race where New Zealand crossed the line and you claimed that the “America’s Cup is now New Zealand's Cup”. I’ve often thought over the years that you must have put a lot of preparation into that final 30 seconds in terms of what you were going to say and how you’re going to deliver it, because you delivered it with perfection and literally to the point where your final word came out as the boat crossed the line. Was there a lot of preparation that went to that sort of historical moment?

Russell Coutts and Peter Blake in happier days for Team New Zealand in 1995-2003 when they held the cup

PETER MONTGOMERY: The first thing is in live broadcasting, you can’t really script anything and that means whether you’re the rugby commentator or its rugby league or in my case sailing. On the 13th of May 1995, I woke up quite early and I thought this could be a significant day for New Zealand. I just jotted down a couple of thoughts really on key things that I should try and wrap up that if all went according to plan and the NZL32 was able to win, to then in the final couple of minutes, try and summarise the regatta and also new Zealand’s participation in the America’s Cup.

Russell Coutts steps off the plane onto New Zealand soil, with the Americas Cup in hand in1995

Because I remember the first Cup I went to in 1980 and I thought I’d be supporting Australia forever. One, it was far beyond New Zealand financially. Two, New Zealand did not the expertise sailing these boats and they certainly didn’t have the technology. Then as we know the 80’s were a huge decade of change and so here we were in 1995 and it was all happening. In 1980 I thought New Zealand would get a man on the moon quicker than the challenging for the America’s Cup. It seemed that formidable.

Anyway, I jotted down a couple of notes and as the race went on, it was coming down to the final leg and I started trying to think what was I going to say and note. I was tossing these things around but the problem was, that we were in a 12 and a half metre RIB. And because of the security out on the water, to keep the area clear for the race boats and the US Coast Guard, we had to go further. So my major concern was actually trying to think, "Where is the finish line? Where are we in line with it?" And doing that rather than trying to deliver the words.

In Auckland more than 400,000 turned out for the Team New Zealand Americas Cup Victory Parade in 1995

So it was a whole moving target and what I was trying to do and thinking, "Well this is a one off, you've got one chance here live. There's not chance of a retake to do it later." So to do that I thought, coming down the final leg, I thought if I had the opportunity, again coming back to those race horse commentators and the influence that have had on me and particularly the colourful Australian ones.

Back in the 60’s and so on, the Bert Bryants, Bill Collins and Ken Howard. So that’s when I thought, "Well you've got to try and say something, you haven’t got the story of your life, you haven’t got 12 words or 20 words to do it, what can you do in about a half a dozen words?" So the America’s Cup had to begin and then somehow I was able to pluck out the other words as well.

As much as anything, it was the pausing that, "The America’s Cup... is now... New Zealand’s Cup." Rather than, "The America’s cup is now New Zealand’s cup." If you get my point? If you listen to really good broadcasters and sports broadcasters, it’s their timing and silence sometimes is golden.

Russell giveth and Russell taketh away as he accepts the Cup as Skipper of Alinghi Switzerland 2003

OSP: Okay. So Russell Coutts is clearly one of a kind having sailed for New Zealand for Switzerland and for the US and he’s achieved some remarkable things in his life. What drives Russell Coutts do you think to continue to do what he does at the level that he does? Because it’s a high stress, high pressure, high stakes game but he’s proved to be in a class of his own with what he’s achieved.

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well Russell Coutts is the only sailor in the world who has won an Olympic gold medal and skippered an America’s Cup boat. Now there are some people who would say, "Well Buddy Melges did as well," but actually Bill Koch was skipper and has made it well known that he was the skipper of the America 3 crew in '92. Buddy was the helmsman. So he is close to it as well and an exceptional person as well.

Russell is chillingly determined and focused and his sister tells stories that even when they were going to school, in the school bus there would be a competition amongst the family in their luncheons who has got the most raisins in their pack. I mean Russell is unbelievably competitive. Chillingly competitive to the point, I think it could be a worry. I dunno? That’s just one of those things, but what he has done, and then you think, "Well okay, he moved on from Team New Zealand," I think a different administration, different organisation, where people weren’t talking to each other and we haven’t got time now today, but there was a disconnect in 2000 unfortunately, Russell moved on to Alinghi and then he had his own disconnect with Ernesto Bertarelli.

Team New Zealand comes within 1 degree of capsizing at AC34 in San Francisco 2013

There he is at Oracle and I’ve got no doubt that when Oracle were coming second, a distant second, that it was Coutts who really started working out a lot of the things and basic mathematics that if you widen the angle of the boat and sail quicker. Oracle started with a mast didn’t twist and yet it finished the regatta in the America’s Cup 2013 with a mast that did twist. Yes there were other bright people involved but Coutts was a key factor in a lot of that. Yeah, he’s definitely achieved a lot and it has been significant and he is incredibly, incredibly competitive.

OSP: But not one for the limelight. That’s quite interesting, I think the last time they won the cup he had already exited stage left and headed away elsewhere and he just wants to get the job done. 

PETER MONTGOMERY: When they won the Cup, Coutts, wouldn’t go up on the stage, he didn’t want to do that. He wouldn’t do it either but anyway, that’s Russell, he’s got his own ways and he may not be everyone’s favourite with where the Cup has gone and the direction but the short story is, that’s where the Cup has gone and the direction, so we live with it and move on.

Russell Coutts has skippered or led 6 winning Americas Cup Campaigns for 3 different countries since 1995

OSP: I think when we look back in 10, 20, 30 years from now his contribution certainly will be admired and respected for what it’s done for the Cup despite some of the changes that haven't always been everybody’s cup of tea. Team Japan under Dean Barker's leadership appear to have a crew that’s becoming more and more competitive. They seem to be able to hold their own in the start sequence on that first leg. It just seems to be the polish around the track that’s letting them down and obviously more time in the saddle is going to help that. What do you think is possible for them in 2017 when it comes to the America’s Cup?

PETER MONTGOMERY: Yeah, I think they are. They're getting good people around them and involved with them. Many who were very good people including a very good designer called Nick Holroyd who was with Team New Zealand and has now gone with Dean Barker. I think the key point is that, yes these regatta’s you're talking about and the AC45’s in Oman and coming up to New York, Chicago, there is one going to be in Portsmouth in late July.

Peter talking with Dean Barker

Yeah but really the key question is, what is the Japanese challenge let alone Ben Ainslie, the French, definitely Artemis and Team New Zealand, what are they doing with the development of their foils now? Or their development on these surrogate boats and how are they coping?

Meanwhile as I’ve said already, Oracle’s on to their third and Oracle’s allowed two America’s Cup boats and none of them are allowed to launch until 1 January 2017 and how quickly will they come out and what’s the evolution? So just because you’re doing well in these AC45’s does not necessarily translate that you’ll do well on America’s Cup 2017 when the big show comes out. It could all add up but it won’t necessarily automatically transfer over.

OSP: That’s right, we know it’s about timing your run and even if you time your run and you’re 8:3 up, nothing’s guaranteed, right?

PETER MONTGOMERY: No, no, not at all. Well again to the point that Burling and Tuke are just, well they’re unbeaten in 49er Olympic class skiff regattas since London 2012. That does not necessarily mean they’re going to win the gold medal, they should and whether or not they take their eye off the ball because of America’s Cup involvement or as Peter Burling says, it helps them and refreshes them, getting into something else. We know that in the final six months of the Olympic campaigns, there will be people coming out of the woodwork. I mean history tells you that, the same but different applies in the America’s Cup as well. So yep, watch this space.

OSP: With Bermuda Peter, what can we expect there wind-wise? I know after watching the Oman AC45’s, where we had nine knots of breeze and foiling cats going around marks doing three knots and not foiling, what can we expect in Bermuda in terms of average wind conditions?

The only thing constant about the Americas Cup is change

PETER MONTGOMERY: I’m told 8 to 16 knots at that time of year out on the Great Sound and it will be excellent sailing and not a lot of waves either, it will be really, really good but the trouble is these boats still, even though they’ve been pulled back from the 72 to the 62 to now under 50 feet, they’re still big and powerful for the Great Sound if you get the drift.

Rather than a more wide open expansive less restrictive area, if it was out in the Hauraki Gulf or somewhere else. So you’ve still got to be mindful of where it’s going to be sailed, it will be excellent sailing conditions. I mean Bermuda is really a splendid place to sail, just the logistics though, when you land in Bermuda, you can’t rent a car. The only way you get around the island is on your moped.

So there is going to be logistical problems. I mean there’s been no helicopters in Bermuda. So how are they going to get aerial shots? There’s a whole bunch of other factors there that they're working their way through that you've got to look at as well.

OSP: Okay.

PETER MONTGOMERY: It’s all a new challenge.

OSP: Yeah, literally. Moving on, before we wrap up, I just really wanted to touch on Sir Peter Blake. I guess, I’m conscious of your time this morning, but my earliest memories of the Whitbread were when I read Digby Taylor's book, "Outward Bound" and that really got me riveted I guess on what was the Whitbread race back then.

Peter Montgomery in the thick of the action broadcasting onboard

Then I picked up on Peter Blake’s adventures and one of my fondest memories was Peter Blake coming down the Auckland Harbour, racing Grant Dalton and listening to your commentary on the radio and it was just - I lived in Browns Bay then, on the north shore and it was absolutely riveting and I guess Peter Blake, when I think about Peter Blake and I'm thinking about what he’d achieved and he was such an icon and a kind of an Edmond Hilary like figure in New Zealand.

And then when he died, the impact that had on me and so many people I knew was really - it only really paralleled to the death of Princess Diana in terms of stopping a nation in it's footsteps and it was such a tragic loss and you would know that far more than I do, given you had a really unique and special relationship with Sir Peter, which I picked up from your biography. What are some of your fondest memories of Sir Peter Blake?

Peter Montgomery onboard broadcasting boat Northstar with Sir Edmund Hillary in 2003

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well he was a special person in that he had respect for people and treated them well, whatever walk of life or whatever area they were in, not necessarily just journalists or broadcasters, it was literally all sorts of people and he did a lot, yes, it was a tragic loss. Life sadly has to go on. I mean Peter really, I think a key thing was that he was able to put people around him and give them an opportunity and those people, I'm thinking of not just the crews, of Ceramco, Lion New Zealand, Steinlager 2 and then the Jules Vern and in the America’s Cup.

They were able to do things that probably some people didn’t expect of themselves. I’ve got a recording here with Peter after America’s Cup 92 saying “if that’s the American’s Cup, you can stick it” because he was brought in too late in '92 and Bruce Farr had the established management and this is the bow sprit and tandem keel campaign.

Peter Blake coined the phrase "Liquid Himalayas" describing his southern ocean sailing in the Whitbread Race

So Peter was there but he was too little too late. When Allan Sefton was able to talk him into coming back in 1995, it was Peter really on his terms. I think although he did great things, he was more comfortable in the campaigns of a big family and my vision of a big family is about 30 people, rather than north of a hundred people in those America's Cup campaigns.

At the height of the America's Cup campaigns, even back in 95, you’d have up to 140, 150 people. So you knew everybody, not only the number of people who are on Ceramco, Lion New Zealand and Steinlager but then the onshore people who were the backup as well. Peter was very comfortable with those and they were really his. He took an awful lot of flack saying that he sailed the Whitbread four times and never won it, well it’d actually been as a crew without quite the power and influence back in the first race on the Burton Cutter in 1974, on condor in 1977, so yes he had sailed on a couple of boats, Ceramco was a revelation and they broke their mast, which they did a good job of still sailing over 4,000 nautical miles to Cape Town under jury rig and then they overreacted I think and with Lion New Zealand, that was built to stand anything and it did.

Steinlager 2 the only yacht to ever win every leg of the Whitbread or Volvo round the world race

So many of the other boats broke except UBS who won the race and Lion New Zealand got second. Anyway, they got it all together and with the perfect campaign in Steinlager 2, it was just quite outstanding and I think that was the most significant of Blake’s campaigns because that was the watershed to go on and do the Jules Vern and the America’s Cups.

Peter Blake disagreed with me, he thinks his most significant campaign and the one he enjoyed most was the Jules Vern, the second was successful, remember, they nearly flipped it, sank the damn thing off Cape Town on first attempt but anyway, they went around and got the Jules Vern record which in this day and age seems tiddly compared to where it’s got to now with foiling being introduced.

Peter Blake wins the 1988/89 Whitbread round the world race with Steinlager 2

Peter ran fantastic campaigns with what he achieved, but also he was very strong on the environmental issues way back. I’ve got recordings of him here; "We’re 2,000 miles from Cape Town and we just seen an albatross," or he’s concerned about plastic in the Southern Ocean, or the birds caught in plastic or whatever. He was concerned about that as well so he was a special person and he's still missed to this day.

OSP: He was a sailor above all else, he was a sailor and a family man.

PETER MONTGOMERY: And he was a sailor that came from a different background because when you look at all the top sailors, they came through that dinghy, white hot P Class in this day and age, Optimist too, P Class to a degree, Starling or the equivalent around the world and all of those very good sailors, it doesn’t matter who you think of in America’s Cup and Peter had come through differently, more through more a cruising background and putting campaigns together.

Emirates Team New Zealand does a nosedive in the 2013 Louis Vuitton Series

He was different and he just loved those campaigns and he understood, he was not part of that junior sailing in the top 10, if you’re not in the top 10, you’re burned off and you think of the drop-out factor across the world and the number of kids who go optimist sailing and not many continue on into lasers and Olympic Class codes. So Peter came from a different avenue and I think that helped him a lot too. 

OSP: Okay and in your biography Allan Sefton appears a lot throughout that and he's been involved and made a contribution to yachting in lots of different ways that probably isn't that well known by most New Zealanders at all. How would you describe the role that he's played in your life?

PETER MONTGOMERY: He’s been key, no, there’s no doubt about it, first we were colleagues in media and really, he’s been a scribbler in the written press, hence his name was Scribbles. He’s a very good writer and a brilliant wordsmith and he wrote books on Peter Blake but also on the America’s Cup out of Fremantle.

Sir Michael Fay with David Barnes

Then he was lured to go to the dark side by Michael Fay meaning into media and management and Alan was a very big influence and he did a great job, but Alan can be a bit stubborn over some things at times and a bit inflexible and I think that some of those things still maybe move on a bit but.

Alan had a very big influence but more importantly when I brought up the name Chris Bouzaid before and all that stuff and hundreds of hours of broadcasting through the seventies on Southern Cross. Alan Sefton was there writing for the Auckland Star in those days and the stuff that he would write and inevitably, the power would be on the back page of the Star and even leading some rugby, football, soccer or cricket pieces and Allan had a very big influence in the rise and rise of New Zealand sailing, no doubt about it.

OSP: Okay, that's fascinating. So just in terms of wrapping up, I've just got some final questions for you Peter. In 1990 you were awarded the New Zealand Yachtsman of the Year, the New Zealand Yachting Federation's highest honour. And yet for many New Zealanders it was really 94-95 onwards that you became more of a household name, largely through America's Cup broadcasting. How much did that award mean to you then and how much does it still mean to you today?

Peter Montgomery with the 1990 New Zealand Yachtsman of the Year Trophy

PETER MONTGOMERY:  I was surprised at the time really. That comes back to, yes as you say; the awareness. Certainly through television and the America’s Cups but during the 70’s and 80’s, we had done a hell of a lot and particularly with the Whitbread and we probably haven't got time now, but I went to the start of the second Whitbread and Blake looked after me and introduced me to Claire Francis who was the skipper of ABC Accutrac and she was explaining, she was going to speak to Capital Radio.

Now, in those days, private radio was fledgling in the UK and nowhere near the powerful force it is now. The BBC still ruled in those days. Anyway, we took it on board and when we got back on Condor, Blake explained to the skipper Robin Knox Johnson, now Sir Robin, what Claire had told us and it was Sir Robin Knox Johnson who said, "Why don't a couple of Kiwis speak to each other?”, meaning that if we spoke to Condor, Robin Knox Johnson didn’t think he or his co-skipper Lesley Williams needed to be involved. It was a Blake who was a watch captain and so from those early fitful days in 1977, we developed it a lot more and Peter and I had a lot of input in terms of the broadcasting and how you did it through Ceramco and it became more refined and sophisticated through Lion New Zealand and Steinlager 2.

Bernard Fergusson, New Zealand Governor-General and instigator of the New Zelanad Yachtsman of the Year Award

So a lot of those things in the input that we did really, with Alan Sefton involved as well, They’re just forgotten now. It was all part of the building blocks, if you like, in the rise and rise of New Zealand sailing and there’s no doubt about it.

OSP: Okay, on a personal note I spoke to Rob Mundle last week and he spoke warmly of his friendship with you and the many times your paths have crossed over the years and with the glint in his eye, he did suggest I ask you about the story behind the nickname ‘Splash’ that you ended up with at some point along the way.

The spectacular Organ Pipes all yachts sail past in the Sydney to Hobart Race

PETER MONTGOMERY: You can thank Mundle for nothing. Actually it was Sefton. Well, there we were, we were invited to go to this stud about 60 miles north of Fremantle and the America’s Cup media had been taken up in coaches or buses to this incredible place where they had these beautiful white horses from Spain and did all these fantastic tricks.

Anyway, we were in this place and there was an indoor pool and alongside the pool was the Jacuzzi and we got to the stage of the night where people from various countries were invited up to do something, whether we were going to do the Haka or Pokarekare Ana or whatever, the New Zealand’s were invited up.

I got distracted as I was walking up and I managed to walk straight into the Jacuzzi. Hence Sefton called me Splash and unfortunately Mundle still remembers it. Our family are great fans of Mundle and what he’s done and what he’s written lately, he’s done an outstanding job and he’s being a very good journalist too during his time.

When I think of what Mundle was doing back during the 70’s and 80’s on the Sydney to Hobart, offshore racing and the America’s Cup writing for the Australian and all he did, there's just not those opportunities now and that is disappointing.

The Montgomerys - Johnny, Peter, Claudia and Kate find plenty to smile about

OSP: Yeah, some interesting parallels between the both of you with your contributions to respective countries from a broadcasting view around sailing. So finally Peter, I guess what music do you still have left inside you and what’s next for you?

PETER MONTGOMERY: Well I mean, I’m still involved in broadcasting, they’re talking to me about whether or not I’ll be in Bermuda next year and I may do some commentary even on Olympic sailing this year off tube, but now its the cost of the Olympics that are becoming extortionate and so prohibitive, that so many broadcasters in various countries, they’ll do it off tube from their own country.

Peter Montgomery awarded an MBE by New Zealand Governor General Dame Cath Tizard in 1995

I may do that and or the America’s Cup. I’m very mindful that it gets to the stage in life when it becomes someone else’s turn. I want to do other things while I can or dare I say it, before it’s too late. And spend time with my wife and family and other things and travelling, I’m still involved a hell of a lot doing stuff for various yacht clubs, I'm Patron of a couple of yacht clubs.

One a junior sailing club and another an indigenous, “The Mullet Boats” in Auckland. I’m heavily involved as a life member, the Royal New Zealand Yacht Squadron, doing a lot of functions for them. I’m still doing a lot behind the scenes and trying to give back; one, if various people I think I can and then two, while I can as well.

The Montgomery's, with Peter's mother, Anne, left, Claudia's mother Bonnie Brinsden, second from right and Dame Cath Tizard, centre at Government House with the Americas Cup in 1995

It’s been a very special experience for a long time and I’m mindful the opportunities I had for some, don’t exist today as we discussed because technology or the change in formats and it has been special.

OSP: Okay, it’s interesting hearing you talk about giving back, given you’ve been a great servant that’s given so much, it really does describe your character well I think. Before we wrap up, is there anything else, any other thoughts you want to share with me at all? Anything I haven’t asked you about, you want to comment on before we wrap up today Peter?

Peter in action supporting youth sailing

PETER MONTGOMERY: David, I’m looking here at Skype and we’ve gone for one hour 31 minutes. I think anybody who would want to listen to 1 hour 31 minutes with David Hows talking to Peter Montgomery needs a medal. If there’s anything else, cor-blimey their eyes would have glazed over by now.

OSP: I think you’re being a bit hard on yourself. This is such a good interview, we’ll break it into two episodes and without trying to sound too ‘made for TV’, so we’ll have a couple of 45-50 minute episodes, which will be great. I think you’ll find this is the extremely popular amongst our reasonably new, but growing audience. So Peter, I just want to wrap up by saying, thank you for putting aside your time generously. I emailed you out of the blue and you didn’t hesitate to say you’d make some time available when you could.

Peter Montgomery - sailor and broadcaster for more than 4 decades

It has really been an honour and a privilege to talk to you this morning and in my lifetime, I’m only 45, your impact on New Zealand is unparalleled and certainly you’ve carried us through so many highs and lows over four decades of yachting broadcasting and one thing that stands out for me is I guess is the pride and patriotism you’ve inspired in almost every household across the country during those Cup campaigns. I think when it comes to sailing, its probably a level that’s unlikely to be seen again. So I just want to say, thank you for your contribution and thank you for appearing on the podcast with me today.

PETER MONTGOMERY: Yeah, it’s been a pleasure, good luck and good sailing

Interviewer: David Hows

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Episode 5: John Lucas Show Notes

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OSP: This week we’re with John Lucas. So welcome along John and thanks for joining us on the Ocean Sailing Podcast and we’ve got a unique opportunity this week, we’re going to talk to John about his story from more than four decades ago now about an amazing trip that he made. John, tell us a little bit about what was this trip, where did this start, where did it end and where did the idea come from to start with?

John Lucas: Sure and good morning David. We call this particular expedition The Daydream Expedition where upon we sailed a flat bottom houseboat from Geelong, all the way to Thursday Island taking approximately three months. The whole issue started when a group of missionaries got together in Geelong and bought this houseboat.

After they had finished the houseboat they found that they couldn’t get it up to New Guinea in any way shape or form. They’d run out of money by that time, things weren’t going too well. On a particular day I came across the guys that put it together and I said, “Why don’t you sail it up?” And they said, “Well, we’re not too sure if that could be possible because we can’t even get it out past Point Henry,” which is a local signal station in Geelong.

One conversation led to another a month or so later I was approached and asked if it could really be done. I said, “Well, let’s give it a try.” So myself, Len Day who is one of the owners of the boat and two other people and the three of them had never been to sea in their life before. The were novices going to sea however Len had flown in the London to Sydney air race, so he was a pilot, not a seaman. So we rigged the boat up, we had advised Canberra of what we had in mind and they sent down something like 26 different departments to try and stop us from doing it. 

We had to meet all the regulations and in the end there was no reason why we couldn’t do it. However, I would say today, it would be impossible and you would not get the permission because of safety at sea rules. So we set the boat up, it was a flat-bottomed houseboat with a draft of 18 inches, two big rudders on the stern, quite a comfortable boat being a houseboat inside. We also rigged a mast, which carried a cat gaff-rigged sail and that was for the sake of an auxiliary if we had any problems with the motor. 

The motor in particular was a water jet motor that traversed 360 degrees, it was the invention of a local in Geelong who wanted us to give this particular engine a try so that was installed and it was a 310 horse power Perkins diesel, converted to over eight with the sea and cooling and we put the crew together and set off. Our first trip was down to Swan Bay for the night where we pulled in and Swan Bay is a very small bay down near Queens Cliff which is The Heads. The next morning we setup to go out of The Heads. 

Now, The Heads are known as one of the, if not the roughest, the second roughest stretch of water in the world, second only to the Cape. We were very cautious about how we go and tackle that, the first episode of course getting out of Swan Bay is we what? We ran aground. Surprise, surprise. This was a good start to the trip. However when we sorted that out, we got in touch with the Point Lonsdale light, which organises the traffic coming in and out through The Heads.

We were given the okay to make our way out so we put the big engine on, sails up. At the same time, there was the start of the Melbourne to Devonport, the up rise. The weather was pretty bad and they actually canceled the start of that but we being a little better at sailing decided that we’d take the risk and go out. Not a very smart idea if we found out halfway through.

But having done that, we made it through The Rip and not too long after making it through The Rip, our sail tore. So that was the first bit of damage on the boat. We knew that there was a sail maker close in at Flinders. We stripped the sails off, took the sails in, got them repaired, we ported in at Flinders of course, prepared the sail and prepared to go around Wilson’s Prom which again is pretty tricky if you catch it on the wrong day. That’s why they call it the second roughest stretch of water in the world. 

Well we ended up going around that in a four seven which was not very comfortable but the lucky part for us was actually on the stern. So halfway around and a number of quick prayers, we thought we’d be in trouble but we then found a refuge bay which is a safe little haven around the point there, so we pulled in there for the night, sat in there comfortably and the next morning things had quietened down a lot, so we took up along the coast.

We then got to our next stop and we wanted to go in and pick up some stores which was relatively easy to do on a flat bottom houseboat because you don’t have much of a draft. I lined up the leads to go in and I advised the crew that they were the leads, that’s how we got in and there’s quite an active discussion onboard with the guys that hadn’t sailed before who thought that there was an easier and softer and more gentler way to get through the quite big waves that were coming in.

Big argument pursued and my comment was, “Well, your boat, your problem, we will do it your way but don’t call me if you get into trouble.” Well halfway through, we’re in trouble, we were starting to broach and those sorts of things and after a time we finally made it in to a place called Inverloch, at which stage I said, “Well, thanks for the invitation to join you on this cruise but I think under the circumstances, I’m out of here.”

OSP: That’s quite an interesting place to be, given that you’re part way into a pretty long trip, to come to that conclusion quickly.

John Lucas: Yes, well the conclusion was drawn because I had lost the authority to run the boat. As we say in the classics, one ship, one captain. Again, I had the experience. I’ve been sailing since I was about eight year’s old. However, we worked through that issue and Len then said to me, “Well John, from this day on, you are now 100% in charge, what you say goes.” That’s a good idea that put all the pressure back on me. 

We then stayed in Inverloch for about two or three days until the weather had changed a little and then we continued our trip up along the coast. The local newspapers and TV stations were covering the trip and so we had a chat to them about our experiences getting through The Rip on a flat bottom houseboat which weren’t very comfortable. They were quite surprised that we had made it through.

The local sailors in the area complained and said how crazy we were and that we would have no hope whatsoever of taking this houseboat up to New Guinea. However as the day pursued, knowing that we’d taken every step for our safety, one of the crew members decided after the rough trip that the first few days that he’d quit, he had enough. I think it was either too slow or he was too concerned as to what might happen with this trip.

OSP: What sort of speeds were you doing do you think?

John Lucas: We were probably doing speeds, conservatively, around three to five knots. We had picked that particular time of year because it’s the start of the south east trades. So we pretty much had the wind on our stern most of the way. If we picked up some northerly weather we really had to pull off and park somewhere until the northerlies are gone. Because the houseboat had a chisel nose on it, which obviously didn’t take too kindly to northerly winds.

OSP: So what sort of angle could you sail to within. Beyond a reach how much further beyond could you go?

John Lucas: More than likely just on a reach. Yeah you certainly wouldn’t go into a beat of any sort. Again, because of the southwest prevailing, it was mostly up our tail or on a fair short of a reach, shy reach, which would carry on to a broad reach if we got a little bit more easterly into it.

OSP: So we’re looking at some of the newspaper cuttings from the time of the trip and this is before mobile phones existed and this was before internet existed. How did you communicate your story and your updates and your progress to the people that were following you and then on the media side?

John Lucas: Okay, well the government said that we would have to get a radio that was strong enough that we must radio in every evening to let them know where we were. We were doing that but we weren’t getting any response from them, they just weren’t there or weren’t listening and weren’t available. So whilst we tried every night, we pretty much didn’t get anywhere near them.

Philips had heard of our trip and they decided to sponsor us with a big radio, so they gave us the radio, which helped us immensely through the trip and we could keep in touch with people back home. We made it up to Ballina, we made it around the cape and up to Ballina, which is — I’ll just go back on that. We’re actually back in Sydney, I’m reading ahead on myself here. Ballina’s a little bit further on. 

Well we made it in to Sydney and we pulled into the Cruising Yacht Club of Australia (CYCA) who welcomed us and gave us a free berth for as long as we wanted to stay there, at that particular stage of course all the TV stations and the newspapers was starting to catch up with us and finding out where we were, what we’d been through and how we were handling the whole situation.

So we stayed in Sydney probably for about four or five days and when the weather cleared a little bit, we again took off through Sydney Heads and headed up towards Port Macquarie. That part of the trip was reasonably comfortable and it wasn’t until we get near Coffs Harbour that the wind picked up somewhat considerably and we were fighting 25 to 30 knot breezes. There were big ships that were passing us by that were bearing their bow and the spray was probably reaching 30, 40 foot up in the air, which made us look very small in comparison. Of course made us think twice about what we were doing.

OSP: How long was this vessel and how wide was it?

John Lucas: It was 40 foot long, if we go back to foot and inches and had an 18 inch draft. One of the problems we had with the water jet unit, which traversed 360 degrees, was okay but we found that we couldn’t get a lot of steerage out of the boat. So we had to put two big rudders on one on each of the stern quarters, which helped us immensely to turn the boat or to control the boat. That made it a lot easier. 

We got up to Coffs Harbour and the weather had certainly turned nasty but we were doing reasonably well, we didn’t have a lot of problems and we’d put quite a few miles behind us. After leaving Coffs, the next stop would have been Ballina and we were fighting some pretty big seas by that stage but we were running a bit short on fuel and running short on food and what have you. So we decided we should put into Ballina. We had to pull the sail down, kick the big motor over, lined up the bar and boy did we shoot in that bar.

We got in on port up at Ballina and this old fella came down, big beard, smoking a pipe, dirty old jacket on, said, “Who is in charge of this craft?” Not being in the best frame of mind at that that particular time, I said to him, “Who wants to know?” He said, “I do. I’m the harbour master.” I said, “That’s great.” He said, “Well I’ve never seen anything like that in my life.” He said, “I saw you coming up the coast,” he said, “Our bar has been closed for five days. I was out doing the garden and I saw you and thought you’re going to run for cover down around the point. 

Next thing I looked up and you were lining up the bar. I thought, “Well, I better get to the garage and grab the port’s closed signs and run them up the masthead,” which I did. The only problem was when I got them to the masthead, I had no cleats on them. He said, “By this stage, you had started coming over the bar and I just stood back in sheer amazement and couldn’t believe what I was seeing as you came through, well done.” My comment to him was, “Quite frankly, if you got those signs up, we wouldn’t have known what they meant anyway and we were coming in.” That was quite a bit of a challenge.

OSP: Well and quite a compliment in a way from a harbour master who sees all sorts of things happen and then to put in context, the east coast of Australia, the sand bars most of the way up and down the coast are pretty treacherous and they change and move around a lot and lots of them aren’t suitable most of the time in the conditions that we have.

John Lucas: Sure. Well going back in the early days, of course they’ve got a long way lately to making a lot of the bars a lot safer than they used to be.

OSP: To put this in context, what year are we talking about here? What year was this?

John Lucas: We’re talking about 1972.

OSP: So 44 years ago, just to put some context.

John Lucas: So 44 years ago, most of the only boats that generally used the bars were the fishing boats that knew the waters very well and spoke with the harbour master before they came in and out.

OSP: Okay. In terms of the trip John, what is the total distance from Geelong to Thursday Island?

John Lucas: Over 3,000 miles.

OSP: When you think about that, and you put that into context, that’s more than crossing the Tasman Sea twice and it will get you a fair way to South America if you were to sail across the ocean towards South America.

John Lucas: It most certainly would.

OSP: How old were you at the time?

John Lucas: I was 27 at the time, that might give you an indication as to how old I am now but how many sea miles I’ve done.

OSP: With the trip, how many people did you do the trip with?

John Lucas: Well it started off four of us and as I said, one of them got off but when we pulled in at Inverloch, we went to the local hotel to have a bar meal and a quick drink. We had little to drink on board but went to the bar to have a quick drink, we were talking to one of the young farmers there and he said, “Well where are you guys from and what are you doing?” We said, “We have this flat bottom houseboat and we’re trying to take it all the way to New Guinea.” He said, “Do you need help?” We said, “Yeah, actually we’re one short in the crew.” Well within the next half an hour he’d been home, packed his bags and he was on the boat.

OSP: Quickly.

John Lucas: He had had a bit of experience, so he had worked on trawlers and what have you, over the years, in between his farming, when he was cropping and what have you. But he was very keen, jumped on board and was a great help of course.

OSP: You made it out successfully over the bar again and you left Ballina and what happened next?

John Lucas: Okay, our next big bar to across was of course the bar at Surfer’s Paradise, which was notorious in those days. Most of the fishing boats that came out through there, used to have to run up the coast, find the channel and run back down. We had different things in mind because we knew we had a shallow draft and we heaved the boat straight through. 

Now, it was a pretty rough day and those that were at the local hotel, all came roaring out and thought that we’re going to see the greatest demise of a boat that had ever come through or crossed that bar. When we got in, of course there were great cheers and many of them came down the boat, brought a lot of alcohol with them, congratulated us and sat down on how to chat all day, all night about what we’d been doing, how we got to that stage, and what our next big trip was to be.

OSP: Great, a classic Gold Coast welcome. So then you stopped in the Gold Coast, and how long were you here for?

John Lucas: So after the Gold Coast and we were in the Gold Coast for about five days, again, waiting for a bit of a break in the weather. However we knew that there was an inside passage so we used the inside passage to go up to Morton Bay and out through Morton Bay to continue our journey.

Our next big problem was getting around Double Island Point. Once again, the weather was very heavy, the bar had been closed for a week or so. So we were stuck out there, we couldn’t go in, so we had to find somewhere to hide, which we did just around the corner of Double Island Point, there’s a little lagoon.

We carefully placed it out to make sure we could get in, we popped in there and had to sit in there for about four or five days before they reopened the bar. Now, we were in constant contact with them and the first prawn trawler that came out when they reopened the bar, hit the sand bar and disappeared completely.

OSP: Gosh. So it just sank?

John Lucas: It sank and there were no signs of it or any of the gear and as you would know, most fishing boats carry a lot of floatation gear, none of that was ever found. So what we assume happened was they were coming out sitting on the top of the wave, it dried out underneath them, the bow dropped off the wave, hit the bottom, the sand completely encompassed the boat and nothing was ever seen of them again.

We were called in to help to see if we could find them because the way they had settled quite a bit by then. So we traveled up and down the coast whilst the coast guard also went out looking for them, but they were never seen and no parts of the boat were ever found again.

OSP: Wow, puts the challenges and dangers of crossing bars into context when you hear a story like that.

John Lucas: Yes, most certainly. I think we all learn when we go sailing that the first thing to do when you’re crossing a bar is to try and get some local knowledge form somewhere because the bars do shift, there’s quite a bit of shifting sand. They can be in one place one day and different place the next. So local knowledge is certainly very, very important.

OSP: Okay, so what happened next?

John Lucas: From there of course was inland passage, which was lovely of course, going inside Fraser iIsland, coming out of the top, by that stage of course, you’re basically inside the Great Barrier Reef, you’ve gotten rid of a lot of the big swells that come up from down south and traveling was a lot more comfortable by that stage. We’d made a couple of stops to pickup fuel and then made our way up to Hamilton Island where we were warmly welcomed and then up to the group of islands there. 

Now, a lot of the people on the island had heard that we were coming up. They met us when we got in, we had some very wealthy business men approach us and asked us if we needed anything. We really didn’t but they said, “Well, what we’re going to do is we’re going to let you order as much steak and as much food as you can carry and as much fuel as you can carry and we’re even going to organise some paint for you if you want to paint the boat when you get up there.”

So we loaded up with all those things, thanking them very much that they were quite interested in the trip that we had taken and talking about it and what sort of problems we’d had and where we were going to go from here. So that was very helpful.

OSP: That’s a generous offer and crew will never turn down a good feed or a good meal after a long trip, so it was great to be able to stock up there.

John Lucas: Well by that time, the idea of having a steak was very good. But we had good cooking facilities on board. Surprisingly enough, many would ask us how the boat was traveling and when it rode a wave, it was very much like a surfboard so it went up basically level and then sunk down basically level. So you could take on a big sea a two metre sea or a three metre sea and ride the wave out quite nicely with the salt and pepper still on the table.

OSP: Wow. And it’s 40 foot long, what was the beam of the boat?

John Lucas: I can’t quite recall the beam.

OSP: Looking at pictures, it’s pretty big, right? Probably at least 15 feet maybe wide?

John Lucas: Yes. 16, 18 foot wide.

OSP: Okay. So what happened next?

John Lucas: So we then left there, which was absolutely lovely of course, going up to Rockhampton Mackay. As I say, once again, we were in calm seas by that stage. The motor was running pretty much all the time, not a lot of breeze, the breeze had dropped out, so we were looking forward to doing the last laps as we went up past Rockhampton, Mackay following the passage up through there, Townsville, Cairns. Had an engine problem in Cairns and had to call back home for new parts to replace, to keep the engine going.

We did find that the sail we’d set up came in very handy quite often through the trip but in this particular stage, it was all we had. So it did help us a fair bit of the way. So we’re pretty well up at Cairns by now and heading inside the Great Barrier Reef, which was quite pleasant, a lot of whales. We made it up to the very tip of Australia and right at the very tip of Australia, there’s a little channel that you got through and there’s a Japanese Pearling company.

Now that pearling company had been there for 50 odd years or so, which was quite interesting because we’d had a war with Japan, but the Japanese were up there pearling, we were invited into the pearl farms, fed up very well, drank some nice Japanese wine and they presented us with some of the pearls in particular some black pearls, which are quite expensive. They were very happy to see someone come in and have a chat to them, pull in, what have you. We stayed there for a couple of days before we started to make our way over to Thursday Island.

OSP: Pretty unique opportunity that you probably never would have imagined possible, especially if the cultural differences maybe even then, given that it wasn’t that long after the war really, 25, 30 years.

John Lucas: Yes, not long after which was quite surprising. When we got up there, we were met by the US Navy who then advised us, unbeknownst to us that they had basically been covering us on our trip all the way up with their technical gear, which would have been happy to know of course. But they had us on board, gave us a lovely meal, presented us with a United States Navy officer’s ring and made the comment that our trip sounded more exciting than the RA and Kontiki expeditions put together. Cause one thing you don’t normally do is put to sea in a flat bottom houseboat.

OSP: That’s a really nice touch. What a nice way to recognise the trip you’re undertaking given by this stage you’re probably on your way to your trip and in the final stages.

John Lucas: Yes, the final stages, the trip from Australia across to the islands was very rewarding, very comfortable, big seas had gone, we were glad to get in and looking forward to booking our flight to get back home, having been away for two days shy of three months.

OSP: Okay and then to the arrival at Thursday Island, describe how that unfolded?

John Lucas: Well we arrived at Thursday Island, which is regarded as a first port of call into New Guinea. So they have all the customs there, they have a customs hall. We had the customs officers come down and meet us, we had to fill out the official customs forms for getting in there but we were made quite welcome.

There were not a lot of Anglo Saxons actually made it up that way, so they were quite happy to see us. We did our official bit and our official paperwork, we booked our flight and spoke with the missionaries over in New Guinea who were to come over and pick the boat up and take it up to the Fly River.

OSP: Did you ever follow the boat after that? In terms of where it ended up?

John Lucas: I have no idea where it ended up, after having spent three months on it, which probably two days short of what we should have spent. It was constantly used, the Fly River is one of the largest navigable water ways in the world. We certainly had very little to do with the boat once it got there but the missionaries did use it to travel up and down the river and because of the 360 degree traversing water jet, it was quite comfortable on the river runs.

OSP: So when you’re think back now about the construction of the boat and the condition of it when you stepped on board was it fit for purpose or did you have challenges along the way with things breaking and wearing out and coming apart?

John Lucas: No, the boat held up extremely well, the only damage we really sustained apart from a few problems with the motors and the sails, we actually took a big brass - huge brass bell that we were going to give to the missionaries, we had that parked on the bow and when we came over the Ballina Bar, with a fair bit of water smashing across there, we lost the bell. So I have no doubt the bell is still down the bottom of the Ballina Bar. But the boat was in good condition when we handed it over.

OSP: What was it constructed out of?

John Lucas: It had a steel hull on it, built very much like a barge. So it had a chisel nose on it and of course the upper deck was in ply. We put two ex-aircraft seats on the back so that we’d be comfortable sitting on the wheel, we ran shifts of course as we went up there, it was sort of four on and eight off as we swung to people looking after the craft while the others were asleep. But it was much appreciated when I got up there.

OSP: Okay, what were the bunks like in terms of sleep, did you get a good night’s sleep?

John Lucas: Yes, always a good night’s sleep because it had four cabins and each cabin had two bunks in it and they were very comfortable bunks and all in all from the point of view of those that do sail and sail mono-hulls where you’re on a slant most of the time. We’re on a flat surface and could get actually get a good night’s sleep.

The Houseboat - Daydream

OSP: When you think about that, that changes things a lot doesn’t it when you are flat almost all of the time. What about managing provisions, cooking and refrigeration, did you have refrigeration?

John Lucas: Yes we had refrigeration but once again because of the shallow draft, we could get in wherever we needed to get into pick up fuel and to pick up fresh goods, bread and milk, the lunch was normally two slices of bread with some sliced cheese in it and a raw tomato. The idea of losing a lot of weight on the trip certainly came true, I think I dropped about two stone.

OSP: Okay, and did you have much success with fishing along the way?

John Lucas: We did, we’ve had a line in from time to time, never caught much. However when we got up near Cairns and Townsville, there were a lot of Spanish Mackerel around. Spanish Mackerel are a very good fighting fish and you really don’t have to use bait, you can actually put a colored ribbon on your hook and throw it in and they’ll snap at anything.

The aircraft seat installed for helming comfortably

So we had a lot of Spanish Mackerel to eat, plus from time to time we would run into prawn trawlers and we would offer to buy some prawns off them but being the good fellas they are and being boaties, all boaties are good friends, they would give us bags and bags of prawns, which everyone would enjoy of course and did not want to charge us anything.

OSP: Okay. So if you think about the people in the three-month trip, it’s a long trip. After that initial incident coming over the bar, where you had almost had a bit of a mutiny going on, how did people get along? Did you have people all got along well? Did you have personality clashes at times? Did you have things that became large thorns in your heel by the end of the trip?

John Lucas: Yes, there were those times and that’s because you’re living in closed quarters of course. So there was a small breakdown between the crew and the skipper and the skipper and the owner were sort of 50% of the road and the crew were the other 50%.

So there were times when we had to call everyone into a meeting and say, “Look, if you’re going to let anyone down, you’re going to let the team down if you don’t participate and do what we expect of you. They all came around, there were no big blues or arguments, there was just some grumpy little incidents that came up over the trip.

OSP: Which is pretty natural, three months together in a space like that. You talked about the multitude of government agencies involved and getting approvals to do the trip, what did you have to do back then in terms of safety equipment and what was the plan if it all turned to custard?

John Lucas: Well, as I said, at that particular time, just prior to that, all the States used to look after their own coastline and three or six months before we did the trip, what the government did was they put them all into Canberra so that it then became the centre to say you have to go to Canberra. So I think Canberra were all interested in coming down and having a look at checking safety. So we had to rig the boat with a lot of safety gear up to date; jackets, right arrows, flares, charts and anything else you can think of that might be in our safety. As I say, today, you would not be allowed to do something like this. You just would not be able to meet the safety standards.

Quite the pin-up poster boy

OSP: Okay, when we think about the trip, did you have any really hairy moments or times when you actually wondered if you’re going to get through?

John Lucas: Yes, hairy moments, probably three months. No, not quite. Going out through The Rip is always a testing time. There were 19 commandos back then who had to paddle across the front of The Rip and they were all lost. They all drowned and they were commandos. There was a pilot boat and pilot boats are a very, very safe boat. They lock up all the hatches if they roll over, they pretty much come back up the other way, however two boats had been lost at sea going out through The Rip. 

It’s pretty treacherous passage of water. It’s one that the Sydney Habour sailors don’t look forward to when they’re coming across there because you’ve got all that big water coming across from the west, you got all that run down the southeast coast, you’ve got that big winds and seas coming up from the south and it all meets there and it can be flat calm at one instance and really bubbling at the next.

Hoisting sails required tw0 crew in stronger breeze

Wilson’s Prom was obviously a, more than a challenge. At one stage, I certainly believed that we’re in trouble until we come upon Refuge Cove but a lot of the yachties know where Refuge Cove is and a lot of them do use that as a safety mooring overnight. The bars up along the coast were obviously very challenging. Back in those days, once again, you didn’t have the advice that you have today. 

We did, it was one of the first books that Allan Lucas — no relation to him by the way — actually wrote and we were using that one as the bible as we went up. I found that very, very informative and very, very helpful but certainly many of the bars created a lot of problems but once again, once we got inside Fraser Island and up past the Whitsundays, it was just magic. It was probably some of the best sailing I’ve done in the world.

OSP: Okay, it’s interesting that the trip is more than 40 years ago but you’ve got really vivid memories of quite a lot of the detail of the trip. It must have had quite a big impact on your life obviously at that point. But what have you done since or what did you do next? Following something like that, it must have almost been a challenge to go back to a day job and a regular sort of nine to five life.
 
John Lucas: Well fortunately for me, I was in show business back then and we would probably only bring one or two shows. I was Elton John’s Australian tour manager, did shows like the Bee Gees, Suzi Quatro and what have you. So I would probably only do two big shows a year, so I did have a lot of time to do so many things like this. 

The Daydream motor sailing in fair weather

But I started at the Royal Geelong Yacht Club at the age of eight, in Yachting World Cadet dinghies and I was the youngest member of Royal Geelong to have a Quick Cat Catamaran which was designed by Charlie Cunningham, was a single handed boat. I was certainly too small and too young to handle it, so that was quite a challenge and I’ve had several boats since then.

OSP: Okay, and have you done much in the way of offshore passages or have you been mostly coastal cruising or done a bit of racing? What’s your sailing been year round?

John Lucas: Done a bit of everything. I spent a bit of time over in the Isle of White. Lived in the Greek Islands for about three months, did a lot of sailing around the Greek islands, lived in the south of France for about six months, done a lot of sailing through the South of France. So I spent a lot of time on the water doing racing and cruising.

OSP: Okay. That’s great, and what else would you like to tell me about the trip or your experience that I haven’t asked you about?

The Daydream under motor in spectacular conditions

John Lucas: Well, as I say, the newspapers and the TV stations covered the trip pretty extensively and so I have a good record of the trip and my son was looking over the records only a few years back and he said to me, “Dad, if I wanted to do something like that, would you let me?” And I said, “No bloody way son.”

OSP: What did your parents think of it at the time?

John Lucas: My parents and my girlfriend who I finally married and have been married to for over 42 years, all had a trying time waiting because it wasn’t all that often that they heard from us and they picked up most of their information from the newspapers. So they didn’t know where we were or what was going on. The family were very apprehensive.

OSP: Which is pretty natural because that’s not a common voyage that someone does, let alone in a houseboat. It’s not really made for that kind of thing I guess, but shows you what’s possible if it’s well constructed and you’ve got capable people on board. 

John Lucas: Yeah, we do think all things are possible and I think sailing comes down to riding a bike and driving a car and as much you’re on the side of caution and you just take everything as it comes and you work through the issues. But homework again is probably one of the most important things. Understanding the crew is certainly another one and the crew’s requirements. So it’s all a fair sort of a challenge, but something — this was a once in a lifetime opportunity, something that no one else has ever done, and no one else is probably silly enough to ever do it again.

OSP: They won’t be allowed to.

John Lucas: Let alone be allowed to, yeah. But it was an exciting voyage.

OSP: It’s a great story and I really appreciate you taking the time to share it with us today so that people can listen and understand and learn about a story that they would probably not be aware of. Particularly given this predates when even media content was online. Certainly what I’d like to do is scan or photograph some of the material you’ve got here and post it online because it will allow anybody listening to this to then go online to the show notes.

John Lucas: Yes I’m sure they’d appreciate seeing what the boat looked like.

Built like an ocean going tank

OSP: Yeah that’s right, visually, it brings it to life and when you look at it, it puts it into context. It’s quite staggering and the mast relative to the size of the boat, it’s not a big mast, so clearly it’s not going to be moving at a great pace. With that, how much of the time where you motoring and how did you manage fuel requirements and carrying enough fuel?

John Lucas: Look, we were probably motoring most of the time but once again because it had a shallow draft, we could get in and out when we needed to fuel.

OSP: Well that’s excellent John, I really appreciate you putting the time aside and we’ll capture this and post it online and be ready to share it, it’s really a fascinating story. I was amazed when you told me about the story, maybe about a year ago now, you mentioned it to me. What a fascinating story.

John Lucas: I do mention it from time to time and the local papers back home have a history of it of course and they’re always asking about it. But other than that I basically haven’t done much with it. I’ve been asked on a number of occasions to do a book on it. I’m not a bookie person so I wonder whether that will ever get done.

OSP: Well it’s a lot easier to talk than to write. Well that’s great. Well thank you for appearing on the Ocean Sailing Podcast this week and look forward to being able to share your story with everybody.

John Lucas: You’re welcome Dave

Interviewer: David Hows

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Episode 4: Ray McMahon Show Notes

OSP: Hi Ray, thanks for joining us on the Ocean Sailing Podcast today. It’s great to be able to chat to you about the history of the Southport Yacht Club. Its 70 years old this year and interestingly when we chatted a little while back you explained how it’s not always been a sailing focused yacht club, even though it always had the name Southport Yacht Club. So, tell me about the birth of the yacht club initially and what really drove the development of the sailing club well we were largely a power boater’s domain back then. 

Ray McMahon: As you said David the yacht club is 70 years old and in fact in just three short weeks from now, on April 19th we celebrate the 70th anniversary from when the club was first incorporated back in 1946. Over the years the club has gone through many changes, power boaters, sailors alike have frequented the club and used the club and both have used it with great excitement. And there’s been several attempts over the years to create a racing club here as well, as another arm of the Southport Yacht Club but I think over the last 10 years it’s been the most successful. We now have a serious racing division at the club and we have got over 500 races this year at the Southport Yacht Club.

Ray McMahon as MC at Sail Paradise 2016

OSP: Well, that’s more than on a day, it’s a pretty good batting average.

Ray McMahon: It’s a big ask, isn’t it? And the people behind it do a damn good job and having to keep up with the pace as well, yes more than one a day.

OSP: Okay, when racing started off at Southport, did it start at Southport Yacht Club first? Were
there other sailing clubs in the early days on the Broadwater? 

Ray McMahon: Look, clubs have come and gone and there are still other a few clubs around here on the Broadwater but the Southport Yacht Club seems to be the one that’s survived the test of time and obviously in surviving the test of time has grown and grown into what it is today.

OSP: Okay. And what I find unique about the facility here is its got a big food and beverage business and It’s in a unique location and my experience has been that most yacht clubs struggle to operate food and beverage other than Friday, Saturday and maybe a Sunday and they don’t have the patronage that we have at the club. How much of that contributes to the ability of the club to invest and grow, outside of revenue from Marina berths and sailing fees and all that kind of stuff?

Ray McMahon: Yes, massive contribution. The food and beverage brings new people into the club and they discover the sport and want to be involved. Part of the reason why this is busy 7 days of the week is again the 70 years it’s been here. It’s been here a long time if you’ve opened a restaurant up, we all know the first few years are the toughest ones but it’s been here for 70 years, its 7 days a week. 

We are also a bit unique on the Gold Coast as well in that we have got this fantastic weather pattern, where even our winters don’t really hurt us too much so we can be out on the deck four seasons of the year and enjoying it. We are also very blessed to have the view that we have got here. Those people 70 years ago that setup the club put it in probably one of the best spots you could on Broadwater.

OSP: It’s pretty unique and enviable. Surely there is plenty of cases where yacht clubs don’t have
waterfront views or water frontage in terms of what they look out at so that makes it a unique facility.

Southport Yacht Club offshore racing is friendly but extremely competitive

Ray McMahon: Absolutely and if you travel up the down the east coast yacht clubs, many of them have pleasant views of fishing trawlers etc and that is unfortunate for them because I am sure they would like to have our view, but yes we are lucky. We are blessed to have the fantastic location, fantastic view and all this helps the club to go forward. 

OSP: So, tell me about when yacht racing actually got started here at Southport, how did it get started? Was it inshore, was it offshore? Tell me about those early days.

Ray McMahon: Yes I will take you back to almost 10 years ago, which I would term the modern era of yacht racing here at the club. There were a few attempts that have come and gone, but for many years the club has owned our sailing squadron up at Hollywell as well which is a brilliant venue, its great and kids learn to sail up there and there are some amazing sailors such as Matthew Belcher that have come out of Southport Yacht Club.

Kids start learning how to sail on opti’s and sabers and then into teenage years on slightly larger boats. And we have had a fairly strong inshore fleet and for what I would say trailer size sailing boats. But we have never really had a big boat keelboat series that’s been successful for a number of years. 

I moved here from Sydney just over 10 years ago around the same time as another guy famous with yacht racing in this country; Rob Mundle who had moved here about a year before me, also from Sydney and a few locals around here Matthew Percy a former Olympic sailor, John Hall who was known up here as a broker, and Lee Dorrington another ship broker. These guys all got together some 10 years ago and realised there was nothing really happening out of the Main Beach clubhouse for big boats. I think our complete racing calendar for the year for big boats was about 5 races.

Formative years at the Southport Yacht Club

OSP: Wow!

Ray McMahon: Yes. It’s nothing when you consider going to other clubs that would have 70, 80 or 100 races for the year for big boats. So, the guys got together and formed a twilight races series because twilight racing is the big thing around the world. Its social, yes it is racing, but the bottom line it is social. Not too scared to have a drink in hand while sailing around in a twilight race. Every club these days that is successful has got a strong twilight race series and most clubs do them throughout the summer. 

So about 10 years ago these guys got together and formed the group called the KBG as opposed to the Russian Secret Service, which is the KGB. We were the KBG which stands for the Keel Boat Group and we organised a race series for 8 Thursday afternoons on 8 consecutive Thursdays in the summer and thought we would see how this goes. We had no real idea what was going to happen after that. So in first race when we had 5 boats which was quite exciting and when the eight weeks were up and I think that every boat owner and every crew person was like ”oh, what do we do now, its been a great 8 weeks and it had ended in mid March. 

So we started again in spring later that year with a much longer twilight series of 13 weeks, which was 6 weeks pre-Christmas and 7 weeks post-Christmas and then at the end of that we found ourselves saying, “what do we do now?”. It was about our 3rd year we decided that why don’t we run our twilights through the winter as well.  Just because other clubs don’t do it doesn’t mean we can’t when we have got the weather here. So we decided to have a spring summer and winter series. Cut a long story short now we have 42 twilight races each year, we have three series throughout the year. 

So we do a 14-week series and then have a 3-week break and a 14-week series and a 3-week break. So throughout the year we are doing 14 weeks on and 3 weeks off and over Christmas we have the 4 weeks off. So twilight racing really was the start of what is now building into a fantastic keelboat fleet and offshore racing. Probably about 5 years ago we then also realised perhaps offshore racing could start to lift as well and not to preempt any criticism about offshore racing, but this year now the club now has 76 races for the year for keelboats with a combination of twilight and offshore racing. It’s a long way from the 5 races 10 years ago.

OSP: It’s a substantial change. What about the fleet sizes for twilights and offshore what sort of
numbers are you seeing with this kind of frequency? Is there fatigue with the increase in race
numbers, is there fall off or is the opposite happening in terms of growth in race numbers?

The Broadwater before it was dredged and before the Seaway Entrance was established

Ray McMahon: Interesting question. I think to a degree our fleets are fairly typical Gold Coast and what I mean by that is Gold Coast is a rather transient area. People come, stay for their 5 or 6 years and eventually move on. Others like myself love it here will stay forever but it’s quite transient. So, I have been finding that our fleets are literarily the same with the people who come and sail with us for 4 or 5 years and potentially move on. 

So our numbers are good. In a twilight race we have around 20 and have had as many as 30 out there which is great and our offshore fleet is undergoing unprecedented increase in fleet numbers as well. But at first I was a little concerned how we were getting to 20 and weren’t climbing above that and I have noticed we have lost some boats. 

But looking at where we lost them we only lost them because the boat had been sold when the owner had moved on or the owner had moved and taken the boat with him to another part of Australia. So we weren’t losing them for reasons of not enjoying the club or not doing the right thing, we only lost the boats because they were changing their post code. So I have had to come to terms with that. As much as I am builder I like building things. I don’t mean a builder as in houses I just like building businesses or whatever. Now we get the growth in numbers and we get to lose a few I have got to accept that. I don’t like it but that’s Gold Coast. People will transit to the other capital cities of Australia.

OSP: Ok. So, if we go back to those early years and again how the KBG were operating. So they were operating outside of the Southport Yacht Club initially and then the yacht club approached you I think for and talked to you about using their facility. How did you go from operating outside of The Southport Yacht Club on probably minimal resources to then suddenly morphing into it and working inside the Southport Yacht Club? How did that all come about? 

Ray McMahon: Yes. You are absolutely right David. Initially in the early days and I will give you a bit of a background to how tough it was, John Hall one of the guys I mentioned earlier, he is a solicitor. We wanted to have John involved because John was able to draft up documents to ensure that in the event of an accident, I hope it never happens obviously, but that we are indemnified against that risk and obviously we had to get aquatic permits and so on and to get aquatic permits you have to make sure you have structures in place etcetera. 

Southport Yacht Club is an world class facility in 2016

So having a solicitor onboard was very handy for him to actually draw up a lot of this gear and make sure we were doing the right thing and make sure we were going the right way. So, we did a lot of work behind the scenes ourselves. Every week we were on the phone talking to other boat owners trying to get them involved. 

Lee Dorrington who was a boat broker and involved in the early days, used to walk up around the marina literary knocking on the boats doors when he saw an owner onboard saying, “Hey, you want to come and join us for a sail?” And we were doing all the work. That’s fun. We were happy to do that. We wanted to go racing ourselves so no problem. But you are correct I think the club saw it was going well, after attempts in previous times where it hadn’t been successful, so the club thought it was going on well and were approached to bring the Keel boat group under the banner of the Southport Yacht Club. 

I must admit to a rousing round of applause to the guys that did all the hard work, because we all had businesses to run or jobs etcetera and that was kind of a bit of a light at the end of the tunnel, after the work that we had done. For the club to take over and run it through their already structured administrative system was great. 

So that happened which was great and we basically handed the reigns over to the club. There was teething issues at the time and I think at one stage we found we had almost lost a few boats, but I think the owners felt perhaps we had actually (the KBG guys involved) had stepped back too much and we knew what the owners wanted because we started the structure. 

So a few of us are still very much involved now and again to make sure what started, maintains its progress etcetera. So the club now runs it, which is great, a few of us are still involved to help with the running of it, but the KBG is long gone. A lot of fun but a lot of hard work at the time.

Early Gold Coast days before the Southport Yacht Club was established

OSP: It’s interesting. And who were some of the colourful personalities behind this in those in the early days and are they still around today?

Ray McMahon: There are two of us still around today very much so. Colourful, absolutely. Lee Dorrington a broker as I mentioned earlier, Lee is one of the most colourful guys you will ever meet and those that know Lee, I am sure we will be going “yes he is colourful”. He is ok, he has got the beard and the long hair and when he is on the dock is not afraid to call a spade a spade. 

Great guy real good bloke, happy to call him my mate and actually he just recently attended last years presentation night and we actually got him to present a few prizes because he was one of the guys that actually started his whole big ball rolling. He is a great colourful character and he is in Sydney these days. Matthew Percy longest member here at the club, Vice Commodore of Sail at one stage, former Olympic sailor as I said earlier and Matt again colourful character. Matt is about 6ft 7 and probably about 130 kilos, so when Matt’s in a room you know it. And Matt being a character he is, uses his very bold stature and when he is in the room and he will put his hand on your shoulder you know Matt is the only person it could be. 
        
So Matt is a very colourful character and a guy that has been part of the sailing of this club for many years and I am sure he will be for many more years. John Hall who was our solicitor at the time John now lives in Melbourne and John is a lovely bloke, great guy, fairly quiet and I guess to a degree he just went about his business and made no fuss. And then we all know in the yachting world Rob Mundle. Rob is still very much involved at the club. Rob is a past Commodore of the club went on to become Commodore of the club shortly after the KBG days and Rob has written many hundreds of articles regarding sailing and yachting around the word and now he is getting more notable as an author of maritime books and doing a great job and still very much involved here at the yacht club.

OSP: Its quite fascinating when you think Rob is pretty understated guy, comes out and sails, nice guy but then you go to the bookshop and there is a whole lot of books there and then you listen to the commentary on the Hamilton Race week on TV, there is Rob’s voice and you wouldn’t know it is the same guy.

Ray McMahon: Yes. Its true and every now and then Rob asks me if there are any spare crew if he is short of crew for his boat, so I will put someone onboard and I will say to the person you are in Rob Mundle’s boat today and often I get back “The Rob Mundle” “Yes, the Rob Mundle”. He is ok, he is cool, he doesn’t bark he doesn’t bite, so he is just a good old bloke that gets out there and I don’t mean “old” Rob, but he is just a good bloke that gets out about there and has a sail. Yes very much understated as you said.

Southport Yacht Club early years

OSP: Ok. So when you look at the last 10 years have there been any moments at the club where the sailing just kept going because of a core group of passionate people or has it’ just gone from strength to strength over the last 10 years?

Ray McMahon: I guess if you have to really answer that in a short phrase, it has gone from strength to strength to strength. Obviously there have been patches where there has been lulls and the odd J curve and the GFC hurt boating and yachting around the world. So, it hurt us to be sure and many of us including myself a few times questioned was it going to survive and keep going, but fortunately those questions where 1% of our thinking and 99% were how do we go forward? How do we progress and so on. So, on a whole I would say it has kept going forward from strength to strength, with the odd speed bump rather than mountain to overcome. 

The Broadwater before the Southport Yacht Club was established

OSP: It was just too expected. Okay, so, when you look at some of the prestigious clubs, well established clubs around Australia CYCA, Royal Prince Alfred, Royal Victoria, Royal Perth and Middle Harbour, how would you say the Southport Yacht Club compares and where are the areas that we could still be better at or build strength, competency and reputation with?

Ray McMahon: As a club we compare very well with the ones you mentioned and other clubs around the country. Obviously I can’t speak for them but speaking for ourselves, we are a strong club financially and with growth and we are quite a strong club that’s had good management here over the years and I think we compete and compare with the best around the country. 

On the water it’s certainly a different story. Certainly our juniors have been very much competing and comparing with the best around the country and we have got a fantastic credibility at junior regattas where the Southport sailors will come home with all the cookies. In bigger boats, in keelboats it hasn’t quite been that way. There has been periods throughout the club’s lifetime, but in my time here (and I came from Sydney and was a member of the CYCA) and I felt our fleet was a little naïve at the time, and again five races breeds naivety and probably everybody knows everybody. 

But it was a little naïve at the time and so therefore in building a race series, we have also had to ensure that we built the skills of our skippers and crews to go along with that. We knew we would get to a stage where we had 20, 30, 40 even 100 boats out racing and potentially with 100 Muppet’s at the helm, you don’t want that, that’s dangerous. So, we had to make sure we kept increasing our skills for our crews and our skippers along the way. Where are we today compared to other clubs? Well, we are building and we have got a great yacht club here but we are building a racing keel boat division and where we have come in 10 years is amazing and I know that David, I’ll have this conversation again with you in 10 years time and we will be going even better. 

The last couple of years we have been able to bring home a few decent trophies back here to the club. A local boat won the Beneteau Cup, which was great, another local boat won its division in the 2015 Sydney to Gold Coast race and another in Airlie Beach Race Week. Things like that 10 years ago was just not going to happen. Now our keel boats are starting to compete with the bigger clubs on the water. We always competed with them as a club venue and I am convinced 10 years from now we will just be as strong at competition level with the ones you mentioned.

The Southport Yacht Club at the head of the Broadwater today

OSP: So somebody who is listening to this may have read about sailing, they may have always dreamed about getting to the sailing. You look at a yacht club and you look at these expensive boats sitting there. How easy is it to actually get into sailing and become a sailor and step onboard with no experience and just doing some sailing? How do you go about that and how easy is it?

Ray McMahon: One of the great anomalies about this sport I am sure people sit on the shoreline and see a beautiful yacht go past and think God I wish I could do that, how do I get onboard? Well it’s actually easy, you just walk in the front door of the yacht and we will happily do our best to find you a ride on a boat that suits you and your personality. And again adding to that, it’s also quite bit funny that often we struggle to find crew and you get people who say, what are you kidding me? And yes its true boats will go out sometimes needing 10 crew and they will have 8 or 7 because we often struggle to find crew. 

We obviously struggle to find very good crew, but sometimes we just struggle to find any crew just to fill spots. So it’s quite easy to get into, it’s a great sport, its very healthy sport, you don’t
have the drug issues that some other sports have unfortunately for them. We are a very clean sport which is great and we spend our entire time out there on the water in the fresh air and it’s just great. The camaraderie is just great as well we will go out there and have a race and then back in the club will be the stories how I let you beat me etcetera and its great camaraderie and we have a good club house that makes it even easier to do that, but yes get down here, come for a sail and I promise you the only drug that we have in sailing is your own personal drug of “you want to come back again and again and again”. It’s great fun.

OSP: It’s very addictive. It’s one of the few sports where you can enter at any age. You can be 50, 
overweight, out of shape and be a great sailor, right? You don’t have to be an athlete and you still don’t need to have steroids to help you with that, because clearly it’s not that demanding.

Ray McMahon: Absolutely right.

Southport Yacht Club foiling catamarans racing on the Gold Coast

OSP: …quite extreme although with dingy sailing and some of those high performance sail boats, you need to be very fit and athletic, but keel boats are pretty easy to enter at any age really, age 16 or age 66.

Ray McMahon: Absolutely right. You can come here for a sail. We start taking kids from age 7 here at the club, we will start teaching them from 7 years of age and again if you go to the other extreme, there are guys like Syd Fisher who are out there so you don’t need to be young.

OSP: Syd Fisher recently retired.

Ray McMahon: I don’t think he ever retired but Syd has been doing Sydney to Hobart at nearly 90 years of age and that is just outrageous. So, it’s a sport you can do your entire life and you talk fitness levels, you are right. You choose the level of the sport that suits you. If you are a gung ho, super fit person and you want to get into that style go for it. But if you a person you are just of average fitness and you just want to go out there and enjoy your sailing well, there are areas for that as well. I know people that have done the Hobart that probably couldn’t run 100 meters but they were good at what they had to do on the boat. 

OSP: And there’s boats and cultures for everyone in the sense you have high performance crews on one level and then you have the cruising boats that do social sailing they are not that serious about racing but more serious about having a good time and so you can pick your boat, pick your crew, find your spot and you will see  how seriously or not you want to take it.

Ray McMahon: And that is exactly right I couldn’t have put it better myself, its exactly right.

OSP: Two years ago I was at my neighbourhood barbecue and one of my neighbours said “I have always wanted to do the Sydney Hobart” and I said “that’s fantastic, how much sailing have you done?” He said “none”. I just like watching it in TV and he is now racing with me as a brand new sailor that started only two years ago. He is a great sailor already and started from nothing, so it’s a sport you can learn as quickly as you want in terms of the people around you and resources and courses and books that are available and it’s a sport no matter how much you learn you never stop learning.

Ray McMahon: It’s great. Will he get to do that Sydney to Hobart?

OSP: This year.

Ray McMahon: So he is good enough, he has learned enough.

OSP: Yes.

Lasers racing out of Southport Yacht Club Hollywell on the Gold Coast

Ray McMahon: Fantastic and that is great. And that is the sort of the story I would love to hear as well.

OSP: It’s a great outcome.

Ray McMahon: 3 years is a great outcome. It’s a good story and I would love to hear that sort of thing and really how simple it is. It’s one of those sports where you get started you enjoy it, hook into it because the sky is the limit. There are so many interesting things and we have mentioned Hobart a few different times. The Hobart race is great but these days there are so many things around the world that you can be involved in with the America’s Cup etcetera. There is all this fantastic racing all over the world these days that you can be involved in.

OSP: And you can make a living out of it too, right?

Ray McMahon: Indeed so.

OSP: I remember 30 years ago, Brad Butterworth sailing in the Citizen Match Racing Cup on Auckland Harbour with Russell Coutts in as amateurs and didn’t earn a bean from that you think about 30 years later, how the world has changed. So it’s a career path as well.

Ray McMahon: You are absolutely right. I think take Matthew Belcher, hasn’t worked for several years now, he just sails.

OSP: An interesting stat from the 2007 Americas cup. The average age of the winning team was 53 years.

Ray McMahon: And what is it today?

OSP: Its probably 33 I would say you look at those high speed soiling cats and it shows there is plenty of brain power required not just out and out braun.

Ray McMahon: Absolutely right but the good part us old guys (and I am over that 53 mark) but us old guys are still useful because it’s a kind of sport where experience does count for so much as well. You need a good mixture of youth and enthusiasm and experience.

OSP: Yes. absolutely. It’s a good analogy for lots of part of life I think. So our premier event at the
Southport Yacht Club is Sail Paradise and it attracts  40-50 entries and if you look around the country events like Hamilton Island, Airlie Beach and Geelong Race weeks, they attract some really big fleets. So when you look at the location here at the famous Gold Coast, where there is 50,000 to 100,000 tourists every week and it’s got this beautiful year round climate. What do you think we need to do differently or more of to grow Sail Paradise into a more significant event on the national calendar from a keel point of view? 

The Gold Coast, Queensland makes a great backdrop for Southport Yacht Club offshore racing

Ray McMahon: Good question. One of the great things like the one you mentioned earlier is that events like Hammo have been running for a number of years. So they have obviously got that time factor on their side and they are great with regattas and they run very well and I enjoy going to them all. The Sail Paradise regatta is only new and its been running now for about 5 years and I think and we really used the first 4 years as a bit of trial and error.
    
We learnt a lot in the first 4 years and this year in the most recent event we have just held, in January a few months ago, I really believe we got it right. And I hope I viewed that correctly as an organiser in watching it. The previous year I was one of the organisers as well and we got it wrong in so many areas. So we learnt from that and we had the same organising team working on it for a bit over 12 months, which makes it handy to get a second crack at it and we got it right this year. So, from this we will build. I am convinced our 40 to 50 this year would turn in 60 to 70 next year and again not wishing to be complacent, I will do my darnedest to make sure we get it right next year, so that 60 to 70 turns in 80 to 90 the year after.

So, that’s what I believe we have to do to improve Sail Paradise. Its one thing to get it up and running and build it, but you have to make sure that every year we are not complacent. If we have a good year let’s not sit back and pat ourselves in the back, lets have 10 second pat on the back and then go right back out and ask what can we do better next year? So that is the big one I think and lack of complacency is very important and I know we don’t have the complacency problem. 

So we will just spend time and keep building and listening to what they want, listen to the skippers. Skippers and crews always have different requirements, crew are a little bit easier, but skippers are the ones footing the bill and they have to get the boat there, get the boat home and so on, so listening to the skippers and the crews requirements and catering to them in the best possible way is super important, but again we are looking into the future I really believe that  one day we will be talking about Sail Paradise in the same sentence as the Hamilton Island, Airlie and Geelong Race weeks, because we would have had time and hopefully we will have the same organisers in that period of time as well, to make sure we keep building it and I look forward to where it’s going.

OSP: Well that’s exciting and when you look at the fact that there is a couple of thousand yachts spread across a number of marinas up on Moreton Bay, just 5 to 6 hours motoring from here if you can make it down here through the Broadwater or probably twice as long if you come down the outside, but there is a reasonably large pool of boats that have the potential to compete so it’s not like we need them to come from Sydney, they are not that far away.

Sail Paradise the premier regatta that the Southport Yacht hosts every January

Ray McMahon: Its true and we were lucky to have boats from many clubs competing this year, so it wasn’t the case of just one club supporting the event. This year we had a good spread across many clubs and I was quite excited to hear that they were all going home to tell their club mates what a great event it was and how we will access those couple of thousands of boats that are within a few hours north and south of us, is by someone from their club coming here, experiencing our regatta, experiencing the hospitality of Southport Yacht Club and then going back to their club and saying to their other members “hey guys we are good for next year, you want to go there too”. 
    
What we don’t want is people going back to their clubs and saying, “don’t waste your time, it was terrible.” That is what we don’t want and we hope we never ever have that and if we do well, we have got to fix it. But this year we were fortunate to get it right and some people have gone back to their clubs and actually said exactly that and I reckon several other club members will be here next year and if we can convert those additional next year in going back as well, that is exactly how we get all those boats up the road on Moreton Bay to come down for it.

OSP: That is exciting. There is nothing more exciting, whether you are a keelboat crew who do a little bit of racing or a serious sort of keel boat racer in having 20 or 30 or 50 or 70 boats on the start line. It’s a real buzz as opposed to 5 or 10. So as if those things start to build more too, it builds that buzz and that kind of atmosphere. 

Ray McMahon: With the thousand of races I have done, I still love it when I am on the start line and there is 100 plus boats and it doesn’t matter if its literally a twilight afternoon race which is potentially low key in the racing ladder. But when there is 100 boats on the start line the adrenaline the excitement level for that is off the planet and that is where your competitive side kicks in as well. If there are 100 boats beside you, you don’t want to be boat 100, you are getting up there as far as you can. If there is three boats beside you, you can always say you ran in third but when there is 100 boats around you, you want to make sure you are up in single figures.

OSP: You have got you eyes in the back of your sails when there is 100 boats beside you.

Ray McMahon: Oh yes absolutely.

A great atmosphere at the Sail Paradise prize giving in 2016

OSP: So at Southport Yacht Club the birth of yacht racing happened almost 10 years ago and you are basically the face (whether you want to be or not) of our twilight keel boat racing and a resident MC when it comes to sailing presentations and bits and pieces and awards nights and now a director on the board at Southport Yacht Club. What is your vision for the club if you fast forward 10 years from now, when you look at the amount of change from small beginnings on the sailing side over the last 10 years, what do you see in 10 years time when you look back? What does it look like?

Ray McMahon: Well on the face of the club I too agree I have a great face for podcasting, but I don’t see myself as a face of the club. We are a club, we have got a bunch of great people here and we all do a great job. Potentially I am the guy with the mic, I am often the MC so yes I appreciate I am often the face because I am the guy with the mic so people come to me with questions and that’s fine. Where do I see the club in 10 years time? I will wear a couple of different hats. First of all I will wear my board hat. As a board member the club will continue to grow, will continue to be a premier yacht club in Australia and will also continue to be a premier venue on the Gold Coast. We have plans at the moment on how we are going to expand the business and the building where possible and again we are not being
complacent. 

In our board meetings every month we make sure we look at what’s happened, how we can improve on it and where we want to go forward. So, the club itself will keep going forward in a wonderful way. On the sailing side, I also believe the next 10 years could be the most exciting. We are now at a point where we have gone from very little to having quite a good series for both twilights and offshore, so therefore great for being both social and competitive. So, the social racing is competitive, and so is your offshore. We have got a good race series; we have got 76 races this year as I said earlier and I will do everything I can in my power to keep being positive and motivated to ensure that arm of the club builds and builds. So, when we go to regattas around the country we can really gauge how we are going and we want out boats to be competitive at every regatta. We are not going to win every regatta, nice goal but it’s not
going to happen, but if we go there and we can be competitive and if we have got 10 or 15 boats at a regatta, if they are all competitive in their divisions then I think that’s a success, that’s a win and that’s where I want to be in 10 years time.

OSP: Ok. That’s great. And when you look at the location here at the southern end of the Broadwater, Main Beach, Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia, its a magic  destination but what comes with that is this area called the split, which if you read some of the history was largely fishing trawler based and then out of that in the 1960s came the sea world theme park and now there is talk of hotels, a casino and a cruise ship terminal, so what do you think that could mean for Southport Yacht Club if even half of those things start to materialise in the next 10 years and the pressure it will place on infrastructure, water, traffic, marine permits and all of those little things that suddenly become bigger challenges?

Crews preparing for tough racing as they head out for day 1 of Sail Paradise 2016

Ray McMahon: Is that a landmine question I am about to hit or not?

OSP: Given the re-election of the popular very development focused mayor recently…

Ray McMahon: Mayor Tom Tate does a good job. He does a good job so I don’t have a problem with Tom. Look, from a yacht club perspective we would be affected in a number of ways. Obviously if all of these big plans go ahead financially it can only help us bring more people to this part of the Gold Coast and in particular here to the Broadwater and we have an absolutely sensational fine building that is great for coming and having dinner and having a quite drink. 

So we would obviously get a significant benefit out of that financially which is wonderful. On the water it would be varied, there would be a bit of a mixture with  benefits and losses as well. So the jury is still out on that part and I say that because there are so many different proposals in place and every proposal has its own features and benefits and possibly its own negative points as well. So it’s a hard question to answer because it depends on which of the proposals we really are referring to.

I have see one that suggests that we will bring these big ocean liners right into the middle of
Broadwater. Now let’s not be silly; if there is a big ocean liner coming in here, there is not going to be a racing course in its way. so that would affect the racing side of the club. Obviously that wouldn’t impress me too much, but there are other proposals that don’t bring the ocean liners into the middle of the Broadwater which wouldn’t affect our on the water activities, so I don’t have a problem with those. But I have got to say though that those are just my own personal opinions, and as a board member here at the club the board’s policy has been similar to what I have just said; that we really can’t focus one way or the other until there is a definite proposal in place. 

Once the definite proposal are in place then we can look at it and decide what could be the best for the majority of the members of the Southport Yacht Club and that is always what we have to do. There is always going to be one person that wouldn’t be happy but we are going to look at what the benefit is for the yacht club and the majority of yacht club members and we would go from there.

OSP: Yes and if you go back 50 or 60 years and you look at where it is today, you would say that by and large the development of infrastructure and everything around here has enhanced the opportunity for the club not taken it backwards. I am probably sure 50 years ago there were people that were pro-development and people that had all sorts of concerns about the evolution and growth of the Gold Coast.

Ray McMahon: I am sure 70 years ago, there were people who were saying they don’t want a yacht club here and if you look now 70 years later at what it has done for the area of the yacht club, so of course that is always going to happen with development. So again it’s just going to come down to which proposal is the one that would appear to get a green light and if there is a green light we can formulate an opinion of what is best for the members.

Cyclone the carbon hull, Frers 50 competing in Sail Paradise 2016

OSP: Ok. And as an aside, we have recently had one of our members; Andy Lamont talking about his plans to sail single handedly round the world later this year on a non-stop voyage on a S&S 34 yacht. Would do you think about that a club member doing that, is that something you would have pictured 10 or 20 years ago?

Ray McMahon: I think he is nuts. I have got to give him 10 out of 10 for bravery, crikey around the
world solo nonstop. And Sailing 22,00s nautical miles in 9-10 months at sea on your own, I promise you he will get one or two storms in amongst that. So he is a brave man. It’s not really something I plan on doing. I think it’s absolutely fantastic for the club and that he is a member here at the club and a member that participates in all of our events here. 

I think it’s fantastic for the Gold Coast that somebody wants to leave on an around the world journey from the Gold Coast and return from their around the world journey to the Gold Coast. I was talking to Andy a little bit earlier and I said “I think you are crazy” but give me one liner so we can work out how unique this is and he said “Ray, more people have gone to space than have sailed around the world solo” and that put it into perspective for me. Very few of us get to go into space. So its amazing this guy is going to do this, I wish him all the best but I think it’s fantastic for the club and fantastic for the region, for the Gold Coast. The Gold Coast can literary say hey, he is ours and more importantly I will look up and say he is actually more ours. So it’s good.

OSP: Well, Ray thanks for catching up today. It’s been really interesting to talk to you and find out more about the background of the Southport Yacht Club. I am sure our members will learn a lot out of that and anybody thinking about sailing in any club around the country might think about stepping inside their local yacht club and asking how they can go up for a sail and dip their toe in the water, so to say and check out sailing for the first time and who knows where that might lead?

Ray McMahon: Well, it’s been a pleasure David. Thanks for asking me. I have enjoyed every second of it and you are 100% correct if you are listening to this and you have got a friend that’s ever said I would like to sail, then just tell him how easy it is. Just walk into your local yacht club and tell them your level of fitness and what you really want to do and even if you don’t know, just say “I don’t know what I am going to do” you’ll get the experience, so get on a boat, it’s not that hard and it’s a hell a lot of fun for the rest of your life.

OSP: And on that subject we have got to wrap this up because in about 10 minutes we are actually going to do exactly that. You are about 10 minutes away from a whole lot of people walking in the front door saying “I want to go sailing today” as you are coordinating which of the 20 boats they are going to end up on.

Ray McMahon on the water with John Ashton, one of Southport Yacht Clubs boat owners

Ray McMahon: That’s exactly right and again I love every second of that. I love seeing the new faces that walk in, because you never know who is going to walk in and it’s always interesting having people walk in saying they want to go for a sail. So looking forward to it. It’s going to be a great afternoon, the suns shining out there, its about 15 knots, we are going to have a blast.

OSP: Excellent. Thanks Ray.

Ray McMahon: Cheers mate.

Interviewer: David Hows

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Episodes 2 & 3: Andy Lamont Show Notes

OSP: Good morning folks. We are on board Impulse this morning down at Southport Yacht club with Andy Lamont. Good morning Andy!

Andy Lamont: Gidday, how are you going?

OSP: Good. So, today we are talking to Andy. Andy is heading to do a solo circumnavigation later on this year so we have got an opportunity to talk to Andy and find out about his plans, find out about his background, find out about his preparation and hopefully over a number of episodes share his story as he prepares to depart on a very long trip. So, Andy, when are you planning on leaving?

Andy Lamont in the saloon of Impulse with his HP Toughbook on top of the engine cover

Andy Lamont: Well, we plan to leave mid October. We are just going to talk to Bruce to get the exact date that is going to be more favourable to get under New Zealand because Bruce doesn’t want to go under New Zealand because it’s going to be over 30 knots there. But, I need to go under there because one of the things I want to do is go under the five caps on the journey. So, we want to get a favourable window under there so I don’t get some really big seas and wind right at the very start of the journey. So, that is what we are looking for at the moment, we are getting some long term forecast probably in August and then we will set a date in August, but it’s going to be Mid October.

OSP: Ok. Great. If you are going under the five capes there is some pretty wild weather down there several times a year. What’s your wind tolerance or what are looking to stay below in terms of wind and sea conditions?

Andy Lamont: So, we plan to stay below 30 knots most of the time, but of course that is pretty unrealistic in the real world and most of the time we will be in conditions about 40 knots and no doubt actually as we come towards the end of the journey, we will be coming through the southern ocean in winter, so we are going to get hit with some pretty strong winds there. It will be unrealistic to not get 50 60 knots plus, but the trip is planned so that most of the really heavy conditions come, mostly we will be around the bottom of Tasmania and that is going to probably be the worst or the highest risk of bad conditions.

OSP: So, you will be on the home stretch at that stage?

Andy Lamont: Yes. I can sort of just close my eyes and just cry all the way home.

OSP: Okay, so, Andy, tell me what made you decide to do this? When was the point that you thought I am thinking about doing this and the point which you though I am really going to do this?

Andy Lamont: Well, it’s a bit embarrassing because some of these things you just set out to do in a couple of months and its has always been on my mind, as that was something I wanted to do one day right back to when I was a young kid. But, the moment came when I had a bit of cash due to the pending sale of a business and I thought, I am going to buy a yacht and sail around the world nonstop, that is the next thing I am going to do.

Andy's clearly articulated plan to circumnavigate alone in a yacht, written at age 6

That was in 2002 and its now 2016 so it’s been a long time coming, but I didn’t get that much money for the business that I sold, only about $20,000 so I looked around and really wanted to buy an S&S 34 at that time, but that was ridiculous trying to buy one at that price. John Dankenson is a really well known and well-respected designer and had designed a new kit boat and the kit was $20,000. So I went down and saw John in Melbourne and thought that was a great boat design, so I bought the kit and then I spent the next sort of 2 or 3 years building that boat which was about 2006-2007. I thought it was going to be finished in about a year, but it took a bit longer than that.

The boat was pretty much nearly finished when I started to develop a reaction to epoxy. So, I found it really difficult to work on the boat and then a few things led to my business needing me to be close to it, so I ended up putting my plans to sail around the world on hold. I also went and did a law degree and I don’t know why and then I was just looking at boatpoint.com.au at boats for sale, as you do - not really thinking of buying anything, but thinking about how am I going to finish this boat and there was a lot of things I had done on the boat so far were quite easy.

Andy's backyard kit set project to build a John Dankenson yacht

But now the build was at the stage of some really technical difficult things, like putting a one ton lead bulb in the keel and that type of thing started playing on my mind and I saw this S&S 34 for sale and they wanted just under $50,000 for it and it was probably about 11:30pm and I just sort of sent off an email and said “look, I will give you $35,000 for it”. Well, they accepted.

OSP: Wow! Just like that. And was it was called Impulse when you bought it?

Andy Lamont: Yes, it was called Impulse, the same name it has now.

OSP: It’s kind of ironic really?

Andy Lamont: Yes. Because I had to have the conversation with my wife and I said “I know we have got a beautiful boat sitting in our backyard and we have spent a large amount of money on it, but now we have got this other boat, isn’t that great?”

OSP: So you are still happily married and you have got two boats?

Andy Lamont: Yes, I have got a very accommodating wife. She is very good to me but she has said “one of the things (and there are a few things) before I leave to sail around the world that I have to do is finish the skirting boards”, because I put a new floor in our house with no skirting boards. That was like a year ago, so I just did the skirting boards and then the other thing was I had got to get rid of the half built boat in the backyard. It’s out there now, anyone can have it for free and all I want to do is sell the mast and the other bits and pieces that I paid money for along with the hull. We’ve have a few people come and look at it but its quite interesting. It’s probably harder to give something away than it is to sell it sometimes.

OSP: The yacht is not quite finished so you need the right person?

Andy Lamont: Yes, you have got to have the right person and some people have wanted to take it and I have pretty much talked them out of it because you need either the money or the skills to finish it.

OSP: Otherwise it could have been a sort of play hut for kids to hide under in a backyard?

Andy Lamont: Yes. I know. A friend of mine said I will put it on my farm and all the goats will love it.

Andy's kit set project had to go once he purchase Impulse

OSP: I guess it’s not quite the vision of how you wanted it to turn out, when you started building it?

Andy Lamont: Yes. Exactly.

OSP: What does your family think about your plans to sail off around the world, when your daughter has just got married recently and you have a grandchild on the way?

Andy Lamont: Well, the interesting thing is when I first started talking about this in 2002, my oldest daughter was 13 and now she is 25 so it’s kind of its something they have grown up with, that they expect to happen. So, it’s not come as a surprise or a shock to them and they have had a lot of time to get used to, it so they are all sort of pretty excited about it.

OSP: It’s good they are probably relieved you are getting on with it at last and not just talking about it anymore. You are actually doing it.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly, that’s right. They have told all their friends “my dad is sailing around the world”. So, it will be good to go.

OSP: That’s good, and how did you decide I guess on this particular design and model? What was the sort of decision points for you for choosing this versus something else?

Andy Lamont: Well, I guess John Sanders is a great hero and an amazing sailor and an amazing seaman. He sort of made this boat famous for circumnavigations and back when I wanted to do this trip, it was this boat that I wanted to do it in - the S&S 34. John Sanders sailed around the world twice in one of these and then David Dicks did his circumnavigation, then Jesse Martin did his circumnavigation and most recently Jessica Watson did hers.

They were all non-stop circumnavigations, so it is really comforting to know if something goes wrong, it’s not going to be due to the design of the boat and that is a really important thing. That is why, when I made that offer on an Impulse I wouldn’t have made an offer on another type of boat it was not the S&S 34 that I wanted. John Sanders did a triple circumnavigation on later occasion in a larger boat, but the budgetary factor with a 34-foot boat is that everything is so much cheaper with a 34 footer, when compared to a 44 or 48 footer. So, it is a great sea worthy little boat and it was cheap to buy and it’s cheap to get up to standard. So, all those things were factors.

The S&S 34 called Impulse was in need of new paint

OSP: And this size boat is physically easier to manage than another 10 foot in terms of physically managing bigger sails, bigger rigging and things like rig and sail loads become more challenging if you are on your own. So, it’s a nice size for physical management.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly, that is the other thing. I can pretty much lift everything on the boat and carry it. I have tried to lift up some big Code 2 Genoas and stuff like that and moving them around the boat is just exhausting. Whereas with everything in this boat, I can pick it up and carry it and don’t have any problems with putting new sails up or getting them down or that type of thing, they are all manageable. So, that is a big factor as well.

OSP: Ok so why don’t you talk us through the work that you completed already on Impulse and the things you plan on doing. Talk us through the things you are working on, the upgrades you are installing, the things you are doing to make it more manageable, safe and secure and the things that will help you to stow and secure everything, to be able to manage your way around the world.

Andy Lamont: I will start at the outer section of the boat. We are taking the wheel off as it’s got wheel steering and its nice little system, but the boat really wasn’t designed for a wheel and pedestal steering. It is difficult to get behind the wheel; you have got to step over the seats in the cockpit to get behind it. Operating the boat with the wheel single-handed is much harder than operating with a tiller single-handed.

So, I have had a new tiller built that by a good guy I met on the sea breeze forum and he has made a laminated tiller for me over in Western Australia, so that’s been great. So, thanks to him for that. I will be taking the wheel out and that’s probably the next big. When I take the pedestal that the wheel is attached to out, I am going to replace the cockpit floor. I have already replaced a quarter of the cockpit floor and the only weakness with this boat really is the deck in the cockpit.

It gets wet in there where the pedestal goes through the cockpit floor and the whole floor is pretty much rotten. So, I will cut that out; replace it with glass over marine ply and then add the tiller. So, that’s the next job and I love my Thursday afternoon twilight racing so it’s a job I have got to start on a Friday morning and finish by the following Wednesday. So, I am sort of arranging that right now so that I can still compete in the following Thursday’s twilight race.

The rotten cockpit floor in the S&S 34 needed replacing

OSP: You are certainly sitting pretty much to the top of the twilight series table and you finished well in the last series, so pretty means you are leading the overall championship for the year. As well as sailing around the world, you are a pretty competitive local racer even though you don’t say much about that.

Andy Lamont: Yes. I am a very competitive person. I try not to be.

OSP: I haven’t noticed.

Andy Lamont: I just can’t help it, I just love racing, I think it’s great fun and the crew here at Southport Yacht Club are a lot of fun to race with. No one gets too serious and we all have a lot of fun and also over the past sort of year of racing with this boat, we have really been able to get a lot of performance out of her, that we probably wouldn’t have got if we didn’t do the racing.

We commenced racing at Southport Yacht Club with a starting handicap of about 3:30pm, but by the time we did some things like trimming the sails better, putting on adjustable jib and genoa tracks and most importantly; putting a folding prop on and keeping the bottom nice and clean, we are now starting at 3:49pm with the faster yachts.

OSP: So, the difference of starting about 20 minutes in a 1 to 2 hour yacht race is 15-30% plus improvement in speed, right?

Andy Lamont: It is.

OSP: And its interesting because people often assume you are a racer or a cruiser but I think you can be both and if you become good at racing, your boat goes faster, well cruising is more enjoyable. It you have a long passage ahead of you and you can get an extra 1-2 knots of speed out of your boat, you will get to your next destination an hour or two earlier, or the speed may help you out-run some bad weather a whole lot faster. If you tune your boat well, you are looking after better, rather than being a lazy cruiser and having sails poorly trimmed or flapping and sheets chafing. I think being a good racer can actually make you a better cruiser and make your cruising more enjoyable.

Andy Lamont: Yes, definitely I believe that and of course when you are cruising there is a lot of joy eking a quarter of a knot of speed out of your yacht and that is one of the reasons I want to use the expedition software for my navigation, because it’s really a great tool to help you tweak your boat and measure all the different variables, so I am really looking forward to spending 8 or 9 months just tweaking my boat.

New sails arrive for Impulse

OSP: The expedition software is pretty well respected. So what else have you have to do all day?

Andy Lamont: Yes. I know. Other than checking my planning software, that’s it really.

OSP: It’s interesting having a feathering prop. I put one of those on my boat and I am adamant is made the difference of about ¾ of a knot and sometimes as much as 1 knot compared a fixed prop, so the speed difference is quite substantial. And if you are doing 5 knots, ¾ of a knot is a big chunk of extra speed.

Andy Lamont: It might be an extra ¾ a knot when you are doing 5 or 6 knots which is good but I think it’s probably an extra ¾ a knot when you are only doing 3 knots, that is a bigger deal.

OSP: Actually as a percentage it’s a big difference.

Andy Lamont: Yes, it’s massive. The biggest difference I have noticed is racing against the boats originally with my fixed prop and against them now with a folding prop. I noticed that when the wind was fairly light, it was an incredible difference. Congratulations to Gori Folding Props, because I have fallen in love with my prop. Even when I first looked at it, I was like “this is just a beautiful thing”.

OSP: It’s an amazing piece of engineering and that’s the great thing with twilight racing, when you sail against the same 10 or 15 boats each week, you have a great barometer when you make adjustments, because you can measure your performance against a like-for-like comparison. It’s not just guesswork and that’s kind of satisfying.

The feathering prop that folds flat when sailing

Andy Lamont: Yes, it is.

OSP: Moving from a wheel to a tiller makes sense as this removes another point of failure by not having the wheel and steering chain system, with the extra fittings and weak points that can also break under load. What else have you got planned as we look through the boat?

Andy Lamont: I have put in a new switch panel, which you can see underneath the stairs. I have got to tidy that up, and then I have got to replace my battery tie down systems. There are existing battery tie down systems in place, but I wouldn’t like the boat to be upside down and have to trust these, as they are a little bit dodgy. I have got all new instruments, as when I bought the boat it came with some really old B&G instruments that were made in 1976.

The original 1976 B& instrument panel

OSP: Wow!

Andy Lamont: Some of them still work but most of them didn’t.

OSP: Before the days of GPS

Andy Lamont: I have got all new instruments installed and they are set up with all of the connections and software to make them talk to my expedition software so that’s good. I have got to install the AIS and that’s going to be nice and easy to install and then I will connect it all up to the computer.

I went with a HP Toughbook laptop, because I thought one of the biggest things that knock people out of circumnavigations these days is a loss of electrics. With that in mind my Fleming Wind Vain is coming next week so I will have self-steering that is not reliant on electrics.

I will have navigation systems that will be independent of the boats electrical systems and that is why I went with the HP Toughbook as it’s got its own integrated GPS and power supply so we can run it if the worst comes to worst, as I can keep this charged off a solar panel and I will still have my navigations software running, even with a total loss of electrical power on the boat, not that I plan on having a total loss, but if it does happen, it is not going to stop me. So, I installed the new instruments and I have a plethora of GPS’s with a GPS in the chartplotter, a GPS in the AIS, a portable GPS and a GPS in the HP computer itself so that is four GPS’s.

OSP: So you will always know where you are.

Andy Lamont: One of the things you did ask me is what am I going to do with my time. Well, I am going to learn how to navigate with a sextant and take a daily sight and hopefully by the end of 12 months I will be proficient even competent maybe.

OSP: I also think that learning the art of navigating by the sun and stars is a fantastic skill to learn. It helps connect you to your ancestors who also used the same stars to navigate centuries ago. So, Andy, tell me about your plans with power generation and how you are going to manage charging batteries. It’s always a tradeoff between the extra comforts you carry and the amps they draw. What’s your plan with managing consumption and replenishing your batteries from a charging point of view?

New Raymarine instruments for Impulse

Andy Lamont: Well, I guess the first thing I am going to do is pretty much turn everything off that I don’t need. Turn the displays off and just have the whole thing running on low power mode. I have a Ray Marine chart plotter and a course master self steering system, but that will be turned off most of the time and I will just be using the Fleming wind vane for my self-steering. I will have the radar in sleep mode so it wakes up every 20 minutes or goes to sleep every 10 minutes.

So, basically I am going to run on low power mode as much as I can. I have 4 x 100 amp batteries so they should be able to run that gear and they shouldn’t really use very much of my capacity in any 24 hour period.  I still haven’t how to go about arranging solar panels on the boat. Conventionally with the boats most people are putting up a solar panels at the stern on top of a stainless frame or Bimini cover, because they have uninterrupted sunlight. However I don’t like them there, I just think there is too much windage in strong wind and they always seems to get damaged.

So, pretty much everyone that has gone around the world has come back with damaged panels or so all of that effort gets wasted because you get knocked down and the whole thing gets bent. I am more inclined to have flexible solar panels on the deck and maybe some kind of hydro-generator. Unfortunately in my boat it’s very narrow in the stern so fitting a hydro-generator along with the self steering gear at the back is probably going to be too crowded.

I know it’s all happening in October but these are the areas I haven’t really made my final decision on what we are going to do there, but pretty much it’s going to be running the solar panels. I think flexible solar panels is my plan and if we are in situation where there is a not much sunlight or we are not generating much, we can always run the boat on a no power mode and that’s a really important thing to me. We have a lot of guys going around the world in nice 40-foot boats, but once they lose power they pull out and they say oh we can’t sail the boat without power.

Impulse's new distribution panel is fitted

I can sail this boat around the world without power and so it’s nice to have power, have a radar, have AIS and all those things, but it’s not going to be something that is critical to the voyage. I could leave tomorrow with no power and navigation-wise, although I still need to do a little practice, but I have enough to be able to navigate with a handheld GPS and a box of spare batteries if I have to.

OSP: Now, that’s a brave approach to take and if you have got your navigation and your wind-vane self-steering, then you are well on your way in terms of being completely independent of whatever else you add on top of that, luxury-wise and necessity-wise because it will be a shame to have to pull out of something because of batteries. You don’t want to have to start motor every so often, just to keep your batteries supporting a big instrument panel and all the extra electronics that you live without if you want to.

Andy Lamont: Having said that I will run the motor every week at least and I am still thinking that you have got to open that self-feathering prop, because if you leave it shut for 10 months and you finally decide you have got to use it and it might not open. So, that the other thing it’s a non-stop unassisted solo trip around the world, but in all truthfulness I will have 90 litres of fuel and I will start the engine and open the prop once a week for half an hour or something like that. If the prop doesn’t open, it’s worse than not having a motor at all, isn’t it?

OSP: Yes, that’s right, and then if you lost your rig at point and you need to be assisted in some way if you can’t manage the boat by motor in a rescue situation, then all sorts of things start to get harder, don’t they?

The prop is a piece of art when its feathered

Andy Lamont: Yes that is exactly right. One of the first things that happened to me on the delivery trip from Sydney to the Gold Coast, where we motor sailed, we dropped below 5 knots with motor sailing and the starter motor stopped working. And we were lucky there was a crank handle here, so I took the engine cover off and gave it a few turns with the crank handle and just started up straightway. I had the boat like 9 months before I got a new starter motor because it was just so easy to hand crank it. I really didn’t mind hand cranking it, so another great thing about the engine is doesn’t need to rely on any electrics either to start or run

OSP: Simplicity is good.

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: What about you rig? Is there anything you have to do with your rig to get it to where you want it?

Andy Lamont: Yes, absolutely. So, what we are doing and its going to happen sometime around June is we are going to take the mast out, we are going to take it to Cookie, the local rigger at S&H Spars and he is going to go right over it and make sure that there is nothing that is worn or near the point of failure or that might not be up to scratch. We will have a look at the whole mast for corrosion and then we will run a new VHS Aerial through it and do that type of thing to get the mast set up properly. Even when I bought the boat the first thing that I did was change the standing rigging so its only 2 years old, but I will change all that again and go to probably one size or two sizes heavier than actually is needed for the standing rig and also Cooky is going to put in an inner forestay so we can hank on the storm jib as well.

OSP: Great and an inner forestay is kind of useful because if you did lose your forestay for some kind of reason you act quickly it can allow you to have a backup forestay.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly.

OSP: So, it depends whether you have got it permanently attached or whether you have got it set up so you can just clip it on when you need it.

Andy Lamont: Yes, well the other thing too is I will probably put a little bowsprit on for a code zero sail. So, I will probably just run a spectra line to the bowsprit as well, just in case the forestay fails and the heavy spectre line will still hold up the mast.

OSP: Its good to have those kind of fall back plans.

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: And with the length of your trip you have got a lot of provisions that you have got to take, you have got water that you need to take, you have got yourself to fit inside here and you have got sails and other bit and pieces. What are you doing with the layout, what sort plans do you have around storage and how are you going to handle all that?

Andy Lamont: Not completely 100% decided but I think I am just going to use the saloon berth as the bunk I sleep in. The engine is right at the centre of the boat and I have just started to make a new engine cover which will extend about 100mm behind where it extends now, which will then add a lot of storage space as it will be higher and longer.

Scraping the old paint off Impulse's hull

So, there won’t be much room to walk around the boat but that will provide me with a nice table in the middle of the boat and I will have a seat on the port bunk and also an area to get out of my wet weather gear on the port bunk as well. Then there is basically a whole lot of nooks and crannies in the boat, we have got all the whole area at the back of the boat that we can store stuff in and all the areas underneath the cockpit area that we can store stuff in as well. So, what we do with food is to put together one week packs, so all we really have to do is to take probably 50 one-week packs of food and I am pretty sure we will just be able to just stuff them into any nook and cranny…

OSP: Anywhere and everywhere.

Andy Lamont: And probably the harder to find the better because knowing me, I will go through all the one week packs and take all the chocolate bars out first. So, we will just basically fit them wherever they go. So when we are talking about all the provisions that you need, basically we need sails, food, water and some spare parts and tools. And some plywood, I love plywood. I love working with wood and I just think plywood is the most amazing stuff. So, I will take a fair bit of plywood underneath the bunks and just double up with plywood there. It weighs a little bit, but it’s just such a great material and you can easily cut it and do anything with it. It’s super strong, I will take a few large pieces and I will probably take 15 litres of epoxy, which is only 15 kilos plus hardener, so more like 20 kilos. But with 15 litres of epoxy you can just about do anything. Any sort of thing that is made up of steel or stone you can make an epoxy substitute for it.

I will take some fibreglass resin and matting, I have got plenty of glass at home from my other projects. So I will take a fair bit of glass which doesn’t weigh much and I have probably 6 or 7 meters of 600 gram glass and 20 litres of epoxy, which is going to mean I am pretty confident of fixing anything in the boat. So I will have my 50 one-week packs of food, 200 litres of bottled water and also 70 litres in tanks, so that’s 270 litres of water and I am going to make some water catching devices, so when it rains I will just spread those out and I will be able to catch a lot of water I will put that into the tanks so I am pretty confident I have enough water and I have an emergency hand water maker, although I have thought about an electric water maker, but at this point I haven’t gone with it, but I was really encouraged, actually amazed to see at the last boat show this little rain maker that runs on petrol , which I don’t really like on the boat, but he is saying on 1 litre of fuel it will make you 100 litres of water which is massive.

OSP: It’s a tradeoff with using fuel, otherwise you will probably use 100amps battery consumption to make 100 litres of water using a traditional water maker so that’s a pretty expensive tradeoff as an alternative.

Andy Lamont: One of the things of course is everything costs. My plan is look at people who have done it before; they just take their water and its fine. So, that is my plan to do that if I end up with sponsorship or some other form of unexpected wealth well, I would buy a water maker. But, apart from that I will just take bottle water. Bottled water is great because it’s really secure.

OSP: Can’t get contaminated.

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: You are limited it to 600mils of contamination.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And the other thing that I haven’t decided to do yet, but am very keen to look into is to install the Turtle Pac self-inflatable bags inside the boat which basically turns the boat into an unsinkable unit, because these bags don’t take too much room and they attach to a diving cylinder and in the event the boat starts to fill with water, you just open your cylinder, the bags fill up with water and the boat still floats, even with a hole in it. A local here makes it on the Gold Coast. I have used the Turtle Pac fuel bladders on other boats, they are fantastic, durable and strong, you jump on them to get the fuel flowing out of the bladder into the tanks of the boat and they just seem to be indestructible. It seems to me to be a real great option and I am really surprised it’s not used more for this purpose.

OSP: Sounds like a great solution. I have read a lot of stories about people living in life rafts for 4-5 months and they are not really life preserving devices beyond 2 or 3 weeks, but if you can keep a hull from fully submerging and you stay attached to it you are more likely to be found as well and much more secure than getting off it.

Preparing the cabin top for repainting

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly, if this thing fills up with water for some reason and I have my Turtle Pac system, I will float around for 2 years.

OSP: As long as it rains regularly and you can catch fish you will be fine.

Andy Lamont: If I have 50 weeks of food onboard and I also have emergency rations, I can float around for a very long time. I am still trying to understand why it’s not used more.

OSP: Instead of building a waterproof bulkhead as lots of boats do, you have got an inflatable bulkhead instead essentially.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly.

OSP:…that is waterproof that you can put in a pocket inside the boat.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And of course IRC racing boats and Volvo boats and even the class 40s they all have the space to do that to have full bulkhead watertight rear bulkhead. They have got enough space to do that whereas this boat, we could build a watertight bulkhead there but you are still using that space, the door is going to be open and for a cruising boat it seems to me to be a good solution. And the trouble with water tight bulkhead is they can fail If the breach in the hull goes both sides of the bulk head, then even it’s all over.

OSP: It’s just a function of time even with the smallest leaks they will fail eventually. So, what is the cost of something like that?

Andy Lamont: 5 grand. I spoke to the guy last year about it and he said look I have done this on an S&S before, it will cost you $5,000.

OSP: Its pretty good life insurance.

Andy Lamont: It’s pretty good. It’s the same price as a life raft really. Although I will have a life raft as well but it’s another 5 grand and every that old story with B-O-A-T standing for “Bring Out Another Thousand” and you want everything but as you were saying before it’s a factor of time and money. With a trip like this you are probably going to run out of money and not get everything you want, you are going to run out of time not enough have enough time to put everything you want into the boat.

OSP: And then there is space to add to that as well. You have to pull these stuff somewhere too.

OSP: Ok. So, what are the things about this trip that keep you awake at night at 4 am with your mind sort of overly processing and thinking about things you might have overlooked or things you certainly decide to make out a contingency plan for?

Andy Lamont: The biggest thing that keeps me awake at night is which is why I haven’t got in the recent offshore races is because I jumped in this boat and we just sailed back up till Sydney and I was getting in there and I was doing things. One of the things I did is I though “Oh I just better replace that exhaust hose that runs up under the companion way stairs”. And  I pulled the old exhaust house out and it was completely perished.

OSP: Wow! So you were one step away from carbon monoxide poisoning basically.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly. We ran that motor coming from Sydney with guys down there sleeping, it looked fine at the exhaust elbow and all the way up to where it disappeared  under the companion way stairs and under the companion way stairs it’s that hard against the hull and under the battery compartment and you can’t really see into that space and it was totally perished. So that kind of thing.

The perished exhaust pipes of the engine the previous owner had attempted to repair. 

When I was under there actually replacing that and looking around, I was looking at the seal on the rudder stock and the little piece of rubber pipe that sort of clamps onto the fibreglass housing and thinking that piece of rubber there is nearly 40 years old and, if that starts to leak, what are you going to do? It’s a big question what are you going to do. So, obviously you are going to take the rudder out and replace that. So, it’s like realising the things that you don’t know that are the problem.

Wasn’t it Donald Rumsfeld who said “the unknown and unknowns are the things you have to worry about.” So, it’s the things that you don’t know you don’t know that are the worst and that was one that, really I just really give a moment though to. I thought it all looked nice and solid but when I had a really close look at it, I thought gee this is a bit of a worry.

So, what keeps me awake most of all is the boat sinking. If the boat doesn’t sink, I can just curl up in a ball and cry.

OSP: Yes and set your EPIRB off.

Andy Lamont:…or just sit there and just wait for things to change things gets better because with everything there is greater energy for life and every storm passes and if the boat doesn’t sink well you are out the other side. So, that is the main thing that keeps me awake at night. That is why I put all new 10 mm lexan windows throughout the boat and type of thing.

If I can keep the water out, that is the main thing. I put a new PSS seal in and now I lie awake thinking, what happens if the PSS seal fails? An old stuffing box you can just tighten that up but you can’t do that to a PSS seal do I get a Zip tie and tie it up , surely there is sort of a set procedure for a failed PSS seal. Its things like that keeps me awake at night, but really what keeps me awake most of all is about like sinking.

OSP: Keeping the boat the right way up.

Andy Lamont: Yes. So, the keel attaches over on these boats over a really long period. It is very solid but when we take out the water, we are just going to drop the keel off it, check the bolts, if the boats are a bit suspect we will replaced the bolts. But again, it’s a great system the bolts come up through the boat and they tighten down with nuts inside the boat.

OSP: You can see them easily and you can see the condition of the boat.

Andy Lamont: And I have never heard of an incident where S&S 34 has lost its keel but everyone that goes around the world takes the keel out and checks the bolts and so that is just one thing to do.

OSP: Ok, and have you thought about what you can do to minimise the risk of injury, minimise the risk of falling over, falling off when the boat rolls upside down? How do you avoid breaking bones and puncturing lungs and that things like that, can that really debilitate you despite the boat being perfectly fine to carry on.

The S&S 34 engine in need of TLC

Andy Lamont: Yes. It’s a really good point. So, I am going to buy just a racing car seat with a seat belt which I can sit in and belt myself in. I am going to put a seat belt in the bunk so if the boat turns upside down when I am asleep I won’t just fly across the boat. I’m replacing the engine cover with a nice big storage compartment which is going to mean there’s not very far to fall inside the boat. There is a central pole which obviously people can’t see, it’s not in the boat at the moment it goes basically from the centre of the boat up to cabin ceiling that is going back in. plus I am going to put two more poles by the sink and just in front of the hatch so that it’s going to be 3 poles, it’s going to be like a little forest in here. There is just not going to be far to fall. So, that is going to be the big thing.

So, it is a nice little boat, there is not far to fall anyway but when I am asleep or drowsy or resting I will be in this and the weather is rough I will be in a seat belt so that is what I will be doing. I will take of course ok I have got some protective body amour and head gear so I will take that as well with me. So, if I got to get up the mast I will just put that gear on so that will give me a bit of protection from slamming into the side of the mast.

OSP: Put a helmet and stuff on because that is quite a risk really knocking yourself out if you…

Andy Lamont: Yes, I have a Gath helmet which is very light and nice and strong

OSP: I am sitting on your bunk and I visualise you being thrown across the boat and punctured by one of those bolts thats sticking down below your cabin top and theres about 20 bolts there and I am looking at them and they are about an inch long, thinking about the risk of punching one of those through your skull. Have you thought about that?

Andy Lamont: Well, so I have just left them long because the just look so handy.

OSP: Handy for what?

Andy Lamont: Well you can see I have attached some eye bolts (nuts) on them.

OSP: That could work.

Andy Lamont: So, then what I am going to do is I am going to make some netting so it attaches to those eye bolts so that anything that’s inside this shelf here won’t get thrown out and then what I will do is for every bolt that doesn’t have an eye bolt, so all those bolts I knew from the jib track for every bolt that doesn’t have an eye nut on it I will cut it off with an angle driver. I am pretty vicious with the angle grinder cutting off bolts at the moment. Sometimes I leave bolts a bit long because I am thinking I will use that for something. This used to have that basically similar to the car hood lining and foam underneath it.

The menacing looking bolts the hold the new genoa track in place

OSP: Like a final foam or something.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And it was all starting to sort of deteriorate and it was just raining tiny particles of foam from the holes in the lining on the boat. So, that was a big job. We had to pull all that lining off and I got the sander out and sanded it because all the foam  that sort of open cell  foam was glued to the ceiling, sanded all that off and then just put a coat of paint for the time being but I might put some closed cell foam just like Jessica Watson did to her boat which is quite a good idea. So, she just lined the cabin and the cabin sides in closed cell foam from Clark Rubber and that does a couple of things because its good insulation and it’s also all soft. So, that is one of the things. Those bolts won’t be staying long for too much longer.

But I am just looking at the design of the netting I probably have to get a sail maker to make it up for me but I think it will be great. One of the things you have to do is imagine about upside down and look at everything that could actually fall out of a place and make sure you have a system to have it all locked down but most importantly have that system that is nice and easy to use. You don’t have to go around, oh, there is a storm coming I have got to make sure you got through this to lock everything down, just have it locked down as a matter of course. That is what I want to do and make sure it won’t happen for that.  That is where I think the netting is probably great because a lot of stuff you are using all the time is visible and you just have to unclip the net and grab what you want and the clip the netting back on.

OSP: Its light, you can see it, it feels behind it. So, what do you think it’s going to cost you to get to the start line with what you have spent so far and what you are still to spend and then all of your provisions and all the other things you have yet to think about?

Andy Lamont: Is my wife going to hear this?

OSP: Probably not.

Andy Lamont: Well, the boat only cost 35 grand.

OSP: So, you already saved 100k.

Andy Lamont: So, we are already 100k in front. Well, I have spent a fair bit. I am probably of spending another 40k on it since I have bought it and I have probably another 40k before we go. So, that probably a hundred and…

OSP: 15…

Andy Lamont: one hundred fifteen thousand dollars.

OSP: And that is just getting essentials it’s not the sending it out fitting it out in terms of and this is really luxurious sort of items it’s just getting good solid safe see where the boat…

Andy Lamont: Something probably like this computer which is another one of those ridiculous things but it’s really it is kind of great in that way. Like let’s say the whole thing happens for less than $150,000 that is great for a trip like this which could cost millions and I know previous people that have been around the world nonstop, some items have cost more than that alone. The satellite phone for Jessie Martin back in those days cost him around $165,000 alone.

The new starter motor is fitted to the S&S 34's engine

OSP: Here is the thing. You can go out tomorrow buy $150,000 boat, it would not be great to sail around the world, you will still have to put another 40,50, $60,000 into preparing it to sail around the world. So the near end result because I have got an older boat and when you kind of build it from the ground up, you can of restart the life of every part of the boat that you then replace or upgrade like your engine, exhaust systems and like your steering and then you know that part of the boat is good to go for another 10 or 20 years. So, in some ways it’s a smarter approach than maybe to buy something that is 5 or 7 years old were due to its treatment or the lighter weight production these days and the way things are built you don’t need something that is robust anyway.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And I think every component has a life and if you buy a boat that is new you have got the maximum life for every component on the boat and then depending on what boat you buy all those components may or not be up for the serious challenge. So, some would be and that would be great but then if you bought a boat that was 7 years old, the every component needs to be replaced.

OSP: Yes. That’s right and manufacturers these days don’t actually spec things out for going around the world anyway they pick them out for coastal cruising. So, 2,5 or 7 years old may not be fit for purpose anyway despite paying three or four time the amount for the boat upfront.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And an interesting thing too, the difference in the newer designed boats and the older boats is really not that much, as far as cruising boats (I’m not talking about IRC boats)  there is not that much speed really it’s just space.

OSP: Yes some of the cleverness around the design…

Andy Lamont: They are not fast. They are probably more comfortable downwind , less comfortable upwind but they are not really an order of magnitude faster or more seaworthy probably less seaworthy some of them. It is an interesting thing. All the boats like this boat, now getting close to 40 years old, I can’t see why it is not going to be a viable beautiful boat in another 40 years.

The engine gets a complete makeover on Impulse

OSP: If you maintain the hull.

Andy Lamont: Yes. Very easy to maintain and that’s right if you maintain the hull and keep replacing the systems as they start to degrade…

OSP: Keep the water out, fix the leaks, stop rotting inside the boat. What things are not on track in your preparation from here October since like a long way to go away but it’s probably like having a baby you go from talking in months to talking in weeks, you are probably not far from talking in weeks soon rather than months so it will tart ticking down?

Andy Lamont: What is not on track? I have got my old Musto HPX sailing gear which is great stuff but I have already thought about getting a new set just probably a good idea you have to get some new off shore gear. The stuff I have got its great but I am sure it’s going to start to reach the end of its life pretty soon so that type of thing. So, the fitting out in the interior is – I am doing a fair of bit at the moment and it is  running to a pretty good schedule that is ok.

 The truth is the things I need to worry about are the things I haven’t thought about. So everything I have thought about I am going that’s ok. The mast is coming out and I am pretty sure if I am going to mount a radar on it even though probably it might be better on its own individual mast at the rear of the boat. It is just another mast getting knocked over isn’t it. 

OSP: Yes. And the higher up your mast or the higher the radar it does affect your range particularly with sails so that is something to consider versus a lower level. And when you like if you need things these days when I did a radar training course they talked about not standing in front of the radar because of radiation and when I had a technician recently say I should put my radar at the back of the boat I talked about that and he said the radiation was nothing, no more than a five flights to Perth or whatever the comparison is. But radiation I don’t think it’s good for you so there is a radiation effect if you consider standing in front of it and the height which gives you the range to consider as well.

Andy Lamont: Good point, so the mast is coming out so that radar going there, the new tricolour on the mast, all those things are pretty much covered. There’s a bit more work I will do glassing the inside of the boat but to be honest with you, the worrying thing is I think I have got it all under control which is … well that is the worrying thing.

What will happen is like everything else I have ever done in m life? It’s always like everything is under control until the week before and then it’s kind of pain stations. So, it’s probably what will happen. The thing for me is, really,  I can pretty much go next week onceI fit my wind vane on I could go next week, I would have everything I wanted, I won’t have my new storm sails but I could go, and  I would probably make it. So, I am not hung up really on having every last gidget and gadget that’s needed on the boat as long as everything is to a certain standard, one of the things I haven’t done yet is bought new stanchion for the boat. So, that will be nice to have new stanchion and stanchion bases. Again, if I didn’t do that, it’s not really the end of the world

OSP: Unless you are attached to them and they break and you don’t stand on the boat for some reason.

Andy Lamont: They are fine they are. Okay a bit bigger taller ones would be better but even tall stanchions are not going to stop you from falling off the boat, it’s really jack lines that is really their purpose.

Impulse's hatches are remove for refurbishing

OSP: Ok. So in terms of, what’s the safety equipment that you have got on your must have, must be bullet proof, must be triple strength, on your list

Andy Lamont: So for Christmas this year I got a set of jack lines, I also got a harness that doesn’t have life jacket attached to it just a harness which is really it’s a Bourke harness, it’s really light and I will just wear that all the time. I will just wear it all the time so it will just be like my undies. So, it’s nice and light and it’s never inconvenient to wear so and I think that the main piece of safety equipment.

OSP: And then be clipped on with that.

Andy Lamont: Yes. So, that is right. So, if I am wearing that and that I what I asked for, for Christmas was a harness, jack stays and a leash but I probably have 4 or 5 leashed. So, they are all over the boat and if run out and forget my leash there is a leash there. So I am pretty much probably going to sleep in this, in this harness and basically I won’t take it off.

OSP: And if you rush up in the middle of the night because you hear a sound and then you are not then racing out there in your undies with nothing else on and fall off in the back of the boat.

Andy Lamont: It is really I am not really fussed about a life jacket because it will be handy while I am close to Australia and when I am close to New Zealand. The last thing I want would to be sitting in an inflated life jacket halfway between here and South American watching the boat sail away. You probably feel like just getting a knife and because…

OSP: You would be pretty fortunate for somebody to just happen to be in the area.

Andy Lamont: So, really it’s the harness. Its making sure I just do not fall off the boat no matter what and luckily for me I am clumsy so I am not sort of going into this with a false sense of my own invincibility when it comes to having great balance.  I will trip over walking up stairs. So, I don’t have any illusions about that.  The main thing is to be hooked on all the time even when its dead calm because stuff happens.

OSP: That’s the time you trip and stumble when they do come and you are going twice the speed to do something.

Andy Lamont: Exactly.

OSP: So, prior to this trip what offshore sailing have you done? What is your experience been getting out of sight of land?

Andy Lamont: I haven’t really done a lot. I have always sailed. Sailing has been my sports and my passion since I was 11 years old but in sailed right through my teens and then when I was 17 I sort of met some people who were sailing to New Zealand so I sailed to New Zealand. When I got to New Zealand I just got bitten by the wind surfing bug and for me that was still my sport of sailing and I just had a passion for it, if there was an Olympics for enthusiasm I would have been gold medal player. I never really had a lot of talent but I just loved wind surfing and that was my sailing outlet.

The original Coursemaster 800 auto-pilot on Impulse

It was the first time I got in a boat and I just felt being on the water and being powered by wind that was to me I knew that was my thing and windsurfing satisfied that for me for all my adult life. I learnt to windsurf over in New Zealand then I came over back to Australia, stayed in Brisbane for a while, windsurfed in Brisbane and then moved to Western Australia purely for the wind. I just went out there I am going to Western Australia, I lived in Western Australia until my first kids were born then came back here and had a break from windsurfing for about 3 or 4 years than I was back into it again.

And then kite surfing came along in the 1990s 1999 and I kite surfed and then recently after more and more sailing but in-between – I have done south to Sydney quite a few times, South to Adelaide back to Port Macquarie with Tony Mowbray who sailed around the world nonstop in a Cole 43. So, I have done that. But I helped to deliver Wedgtail (RP55) with Cossie and John Gower they put up with me. I think it’s the funniest thing in the world and I am the butt of all their jokes,” you won’t get this one you are sailing around the world.” So, it’s been a lot of fun but I have learnt a lot with them and I probably have done more miles under Jury Rig than most people because we sailed back from Hobart to Brisbane twice under Jury Rig with a broken mast.

OSP: Wow! That’s a long trip.

Andy Lamont: Yes. two years in a row and so unfortunately they didn’t go to Hobart this year so we didn’t get to sail back because they are still trying to sort out their mast issues. And apart from that a few other little trips, but the main ocean trips that I have done are obviously New Zealand and from Adelaide to Port Macquarie which is not a bad trip quite a few miles. So, not a lot of offshore experience but enough to feel confident.

OSP: And the Tasman sea around Southern and Eastern side of Australia you can get all sorts of weather, you can get some big blows coming through, you can get stormy squalls, you get a fair taste of what is bad possible.

Andy in action kitesurfing

Andy Lamont: Yes. I don’t think the actual boat handling side of it I don’t think will be anywhere nears as challenging as the solitude side of it and that will probably be down to trying to maintain your capacity to make good decisions when you are tired. I guess this is really what happens to people. So, it doesn’t matter how much you know about seamanship and how many years you have been sailing around with a crew but when you are single handed, tiredness can be akin to drunkenness. The tireder you get the worse your decision making gets. Being able to sort of stay alone, you don’t have to make great decisions just have to  not to really make stupid decisions when you are super tired.

OSP: And just the fact you actually have to make decisions and not procrastinate and wait and wait and wait and things deteriorate.

Andy Lamont: Yes. There is plenty of cases like that and its pretty well documented. This is one of the things that happens to people who are solo sailors, they become paralysed and they just don’t make any decisions. So, they leave sails up and they are in all sorts of trouble.

OSP: Like the flight crash investigation one that indecision sets up a chain of events that snowball to the point of no return sometimes.

Andy Lamont: So, that’s the thing like act early act prudently and act early and all the other things and get enough rest like you just don’t know how I am going to feel after say 100 days by myself. So, that I what I am saying I guess they are more of the challenging things for me more than handling the boat pretty much this boat really to be honest with you. If you don’t have too much sail up and follow some pretty basic practical seamanship principles, you might not get there fastest, you might not be the most comfortable but you are probably ok. So, that side of things doesn’t really concern me too much and the other side doesn’t concern me too much either.  I am looking forward to that challenge but that is the unknown and how am I going to cope.

OSP: So, when you think about the solitude, have you thought about the ability to communicate with the rest of the world? Have you got any plans in terms of satellite or other communication options?

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: What have you given thought to then?

Andy Lamont: I think the main option is the satellite phone. They are great now and the plans are much cheaper than they have been for ever so that will be the main thing. HF radio maybe but probably satellite phone is going to be the main conduit for communication with land. But having said that I do not want to be on the phone.

OSP: How is your day today? What do you see? Ocean.

Andy Lamont: Exactly. Part of me would be happier if there wasn’t that technology and I could just say I’d love to talk to you but I can’t but of course that’s me saying that now, that is not me saying that in 100 days into the journey so probably will be a whole different.

The rotten foredeck on Impulse has to be removed and replaced

OSP: And so have you talked about the communication side with your wife, what the expectation is and what – we are going to catch up once a week or once a month? Have you talked about that?

OSP: Its one of those things you often don’t get concerned until its only happening.

Andy Lamont: No. that is not a conversation we have had and it’s a difficult conversation to have, it’s probably one we will have as time draws nearer and like I said probably I am great one for these really strong ideas about how tough I am, how I am great I don’t need anything until I am right in the guts and that will completely change my mind. The roles will probably be reversed and I will be ringing – I will want to ring her up every half an hour and she will be going I have got a life to live leave me alone. So I don’t think calling anymore than once every couple of days is necessary at this point probably even once a week or something but I don’t know.

OSP: I found with crossing the Tasman the combination of I will send you a text every so often once a day or whatever and I will and I will call you at this frequency was kind of good because somebody just takes to say it’s all good rather than the obligatory phone call when there is nothing more to say than it was yesterday. So, you can get quite a frequency that kind of makes more sense and text through your GPS location.

Andy Lamont: Well actually I will have to have a tracker on the boat. So, that should actually just…

OSP: Great. You can track you progress around the world. So, we are getting on the Gold coast there is a bit of helicopter activity on the outside I am not sure how much of it is coming through the microphone but that’s ok.

Andy Lamont: Ok. So, my sail wardrobe plan I have a 150% Genoa and a mainsail with 3 reef points in it. So, that is a furling Genoa and then going down from that I have a 100% jib which is again on the furler. Once I am expecting more than 15 knots I will take the Genoa down put the 100% jib up because there is not a lot of performance lost over 15 knots with the smaller headsail and it’s just means that 100% jib is quite ok up to 25 knots downwind probably up to 30 knots but it’s quite ok and then that is on the furler too so if it is downwind we can furl that. After that we will go to probably a smaller headsail hanked on to the inner forestay.

I haven’t had that built yet but that would be probably 50% of the size of the 100% jib , that is going to be a fairly small sail then you can go to a triple reef main with that sail. I am guessing it’s going to be fine under 40 knots and then we will have a storm  jib with the triple reefed main which is going to be pretty much the lowest that we go and then we could put away the jib just to go under the main. So, that should be triple reefed main is pretty much going to act as my storm mainsail. I will carry a storm tri-sail as well. I may put a track on the outside of the mast to put it up but my understanding is that these boats under triple reefed main there is pretty much triple reefed main then bare poles.

OSP: In terms of, how much sailing do you expect to be upwind versus downwind?

Andy Lamont: Well, it’s probably predominantly going to be downwind although you never know. You might run into the wrong side of the system where it might be upwind for quite a while but predominately downwind then you as you go through the southern ocean, its mostly going to be north westerlies ,south westerlies and westerlies but it could can clock around to the east as well.

Then up to the Atlantic I think it’s just going to be complete variation of all directions and that is quite a long leg from basically from Cape Horn up over the Azores and back down into Cape of Hope. Probably be the longest time wise and that is going to be all directions. So there will be fair bit of upwind quite fair bit of light wind sailing that is where the 150% Genoa will come in handy. If the budget stretches and everything is good I will get a code zero as well something that will just ghost along in 3 knots will be great to have as well because the Genoa is not a nice heavy duty Genoa but it just doesn’t really it need 5 knots.

Significant repair work is need to the cabin top as well along with strengthening for new genoa tracks

OSP: It hangs in the lack on winds rather than fills…

Andy Lamont: Yes. So, it will be nice to have something like a big code zero that just sort of ghosts along.

OSP: I bought a code zero over last year and the predominant thinking was that sorts of 2 or 6 knots of breeze I read that you get another knot of boat speed easily. I bought it without realising its actually a brilliant reaching sail and as long as you are reaching at about 90 or 100° you can then carry it into the 15 to 18 knots, it’s just a great reaching sail. Obviously as its starts to come up on the head will drop dramatically because it overloads really quickly but as long as you off the wind around sort of 90-100-110 it’s a great reaching sail in 15 plus knots and it really is quite powerful.

Andy Lamont: Yes. Well, that right. So it will be great to get a code zero. Again but that’s on the wish list. So, that depends I probably priority wise before I buy a code zero I will buy a radar. So, I will buy a radar and then probably after the radar definitely need new VHF, definitely need a sat phone, HF is a nice one on the wish list.

OSP: Yes. And it’s a tradeoff between an HF versus be it I am going to spend more money on satellite phone credit given the number of people that aren’t on HF these days, it’s almost hard that you should get anybody and if they have got HF radios [inaudible] [00:05:27] anyway. So, that is a tradeoff to make.

OSP: I guess if you have got a lot of downwind sailing, what thought have you given to running wing and wing, calling out your jib or Genoa? How are you going to make the most of your going straight downwind if you get that kind of wind from behind a lot of the time?

Andy Lamont: Well, it’s interesting you asked because the boat goes great with the 150% Genoa and I have actually got much to the chagrin of all the local guys I have been competing against I’ve got a longer pole I’ve got a spinnaker pole plus a plus a long whisker pole that pushes the Genoa out to its full extent and the boat is really balanced and goes really well. I have got a spare Genoa as well so I could run twin headies and go down when with that. And that was my plan until I read John Sander’s book. It’s only a very tiny book and I have read it about 4 times and each time you read it something else jumps out at you and this time I read it and he said in downwind sailing where he went for his double circumnavigation in the S&S 34.

He dropped the genoa completely and just used the mainsail because he didn’t want to work the forestay because working the forestay is a potential cause of damage or failure for the boat. So, I sort of had all my plans of being really nicely setup running downwind and now I’m thinking “really I am going to do that now?” So, however I think as long as I make sure we have got really oversized fittings there and talking about setting it up properly plus I think the furling forestay arrangement is not going to flex and work as hard as a forestay without a foil in it. So, that is my plan anyway. At the boat it just settles down once you pole it out.

OSP: Yes. And there is a couple of things to consider as well. If you run wing and wing and put your main sail away, you have eliminated the risk of crash gybe or even if you have a boom break on and you have got none of that trying to happen, but also if you have got a bit of seaway out there, if the weight is forward seem to be pushing right in front of the boat, there is less tendency for the main to try and round the boat up. So, with all the pressure right in front of the boat, I have heard and read that running downwind is a lot more easier and the natural tendency to want to broach is just eliminated completely.

Andy Lamont: Yes, that also brings into its own self steering sort of moment at well because as it just wants to run dead downwind. So, everything works…

OSP: Great so it’s a nicer motion. You mini that seesaw motion that you often have running downwind with main trying to push it sideways.

Andy Lamont: Yes. So, I am going to run with two poles. I have set the boat up to run with two poles. I have got a new system on front of the mast so I can use two poles nicely. I am going to run it. I am just going to make sure we have got a not only the – will have the spectra line forward to the bowsprit it’s just on all the time just in case we do break some fitting or something fails on the forestays. I will have that built up properly and make sure that that’s all we have got failsafe and redundant systems there. But I have got twin grooves in the foil Basically you can just run both Genoas up there, in light winds running two 150% Genoas at the front of the boat will just motor along. And also you can just furl them both up.

Windows are refurbished and replaced with thicker 10mm lexan hatches

OSP: Which is pertinent to the manageability of the boat. And if you need to climb the masts, can you and will you?

Andy Lamont: Yes. It’s been one of things that I have been thinking about on the original boat that I built, I have got a mast built for that and I put steps little folding steps on them and that was great.  I was thinking about doing the same thing to this mast when it gets out but I just had to go and was looking at these rock climbing systems with the giri and then I can’t remember that name they lock onto the halyard and you just walk up the mast. When you attach the mast just walk up I had to go with that and I think I am going to do with that and I not worry about the steps because that system doesn’t seem to be very difficult at all. I am not really scared of heights so it doesn’t really worry me and it seems like a really – it’s a nice system that you – basically what you do is you run two halyards main halyard and another halyard onto a nice 20 mm rope specifically for the purpose and that is right the climb up. So you pull that rope up the mast on two halyards.

OSP: So, you have got safety.

Andy Lamont: One halyard for some reason breaks you’ve got another halyard on to the purpose built mast climbing rope that’s not going to break. It’s a really good system.

OSP: Well that sounds good. And if you know you are going to drill all those extra holes in the mast attached steeps too. I am just a fun of less holes things like that.

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: So, in terms of if you want to just describe your plan and route into that were are you going to tell us where the toughest parts of the trip will be.

Andy Lamont: The initial first toughest parts will be while leaving the Gold coast and heading east to clear of all the shipping channels because as much as I probably wanted to be rested before I leave I probably won’t be and that is the biggest risk of all. That is hitting something and we will be straight out of the seaway into a well used shipping channel off the east coast of Australia. So, that is the toughest first part is basically making sure that I get at least 100 miles east before I can relax a bit. Luckily ships travel quite near to the coast here so I think I might sail 100 miles east I am much out of all what is going on apart from fishing boats. And then of course you have got the Tasman Ocean which it could give you anything. It’s a real interesting piece of water, isn’t it?

OSP: Yes. And you are straight into the action. There is no sort of 3-4-5 week build up, you are straight out there.

Andy Lamont: Which is what Jessica Watson did that was really smart, she was went up over the equator in the Pacific Ocean which gave her a nice window to get used to the boat and I was really tempted to do the same thing.

OSP: But the moment you are heading for the bottom of New Zealand right?

Andy Lamont: I was really tempted, but for me it’s always been under the five capes to me that is what it’s been. So, then if I was to go and start here and go up in the equator in the Pacific all the way back I will have to go under New Zealand or it seems like a waste of time doing that way and also it will be under New Zealand in the Middle of winter which is…

OSP: Which is not a good idea. Well, also if you are not fixed about your departure date you’d have the ability to wait two of three days if your weather router wants to kick you off as a system just gone through depending on how you want to approach it.

Andy Lamont: I think I will have to settle on a date probably a couple of months out which is go to be because I have got family coming up. So, it might be just a matter of a month out going whatever you do wait till the second half of October or whatever you do you go a bit earlier it’s probably the best as close as you can expect…

OSP: And you just got to go.

Impulse's refurbished hatches are ready for refitting

Andy Lamont: And then you sort of go of course you can slow down and so that will be- Tasman Sea will be – I only sailed across it once and we had 60 plus knots so….

OSP: Okay so, that’s as bad as its going to get most of time anyway.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And that is just the Tasman Sea so it’s quite interesting but then obviously under Stewart Island it’s predominantly over 30 knots. It’s very rare to be less than 30 knots under Stewart Island so, that is going to be the milestone to get around that probably to jump around that and depending on what the weather is doing I might head up, go down few degrees head north and get a bit of better weather or if the weather systems look alright you sort of continue down a bit lower.

OSP: So a shorter course around the bottom.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And I have got to remember it’s not a race but that’s the thing. Always when you are sailing you always want to go as fast as you can.

OSP: And if you are done you log each day knowing to see how much ground. You will always going to be conscious of those records days and anything less wouldn’t feel good enough all that stuff will start to happen.

Andy Lamont: So, then of course, after that is pretty much the big one is Cape Horn and that is where I will rely on Bruce a fair bit just to give me what he thinks is the best strategy to get around there. I definitely don’t want to be going round there with a big low pressure system. That will be kind of terrifying.

OSP: Yes. Timing that well because its so shallow through there the sea can really stand up. There is no point of rushing to get there if you can just sow down to get there a couple of days later and have a nice trip round.

Andy Lamont: Just go behind the system and get down and around and out.

OSP: Ok. So, you get around Cape Horn and then what’s next?

Andy Lamont: So, really and again this is going to be very reliant on the weather routing as to where I go next. I have got to go up over the equator up to the Azores. Well, I don’t need to go as far as the Azores but I am still not so sure under the world speed sailing record council whether I can go around a way point now or whether I still have to round and island. But anyway I am going to go around the Azores at the moment. So, that is quite a distance and there is a lot of different weather patterns so the way I go will really depend on the weather routing up there.

So, I will be doing my own weather routing and then I will be asking Bruce for advice on that because I will probably be saying,” look this is what I plan to do, what do you think?” He will say, “Stupid! You should do this. You haven’t factored in all these other things.” So to get up and down the Atlantic I don’t want obviously go too close to Brazil or any of the South American countries and I definitely don’t want to go too close to Africa and end up getting boarded by crazy pirates.

OSP: No.

Andy Lamont: I will stay like pretty much a couple of hundred miles off the coast so that is another factor. And once I am up and over there then getting down under Cape of Good Hope will be quite a fair distance under there. Then pretty much after that it’s just trying to miss many systems as you can to get back under Cape Leeuwin and then under Tasmania and the back home. But, that is probably going to be the worst, weather wise, section of the journey because that is going to be approaching winter, or getting right into the winter months.

So, that is where the systems will start running through pretty regularly and that’s probably the way to do it and the fact that the closer you are to home, the more  able you are to limp home if you do sustain some damage and also I will be a bit sea hardened as well. I have been probably have been though a few storms on the way and by the time I get into winter in the Southern Ocean I will be a lot better than I would have been 8 months ago or 6 months ago, that’s the plan.

The new tiller for Impulse gets to the finishing stage in the workshop

OSP: Ok. And staying warm will be a big factor too, wind chill and heat.

Andy Lamont: Yes. Because I don’t mind the heat so much but I do hate being cold.

OSP: It’s a wrong place to go during that time of year.

Andy Lamont: I don’t know why I am doing it. So, I just went and bought myself a nice sleeping bag rated to   minus 13 degrees C because it can’t be down so it has to be al fibre filled stuff so that’s good. So, I have got that lots and lots of layers. I use the Gill sappolettes which I find really warm. I found wearing those and some long couple of layers of long Johns and sappolettes and your wet weather gear and you are going to wear a beanie and gloves, you are pretty even in Tasmania you are pretty warm. But then again that’s the coldest I have been. The furthest South I have been is really Hobart which will probably make some people laugh but to me Hobart is like...

OSP: Antarctica?

Andy Lamont: I just think I have got lots and lots of woollen underwear, woollen base layer stuff and as well as the normal long johns and thermals and I will just take all that stuff and wash it when I can. They will probably stink, they probably won’t let me back in the country I will smell so much.

I think that’s the main thing is before I go that is one of things I will do I will buy some more wet weather gear. The gear I have got the Musto HPX gear is bloody fantastic I love it. I have got Musto boots. Probably don’t need a new pair of boots but I will get some of those seal skin socks which are really good and that should be it – a dry suit would be nice. Survival suits would be nice.

OSP: That’s when having your life jack with a dry suit could be convenient if you can float about for 12 hours ships will be passing by.

Andy Lamont: But if the boat just fills up with water you can just put the dry suit on.

OSP: True.

Andy Lamont: You can sort of slosh around in that. That would be good but probably even putting on your wet weather gear like when the boat is jumping around all over the place it’s a bloody pain in the butt.

OSP: It takes a long time. It’s a good 20-minute job to get it off get it back on.

Andy Lamont: I am just trying to imagine putting a dry suit on it might even take longer so I am not quite sure. But I just know the wet weather gear I have got get another set of that should see me through and just to stay warm. I have thought about getting a heater but it’s just another thing that can go wrong. So, I will probably just go with lots of layers, some emergency clothing in dry bags, towels and that type of thing. The other thing is those space blankets and those survival bags are quite good too.

OSP: And they take no space at all.

Andy Lamont: No space at all. So, that’s another thing if I am really cold I jump in the sleeping bag or jump in the survival bag and then into a sleeping bag. Then another thing I saw at burnings was the AEG heater jackets. You know the 18 volt lithium ion drill . They have also got where you just put a battery in the pocket and then you have got a heated jacket. So, I might even get one of those.

OSP: Could be handy if you have been outside for half an hour and the wind chill fixing something up and then you come down below and just seem to warm back up again.

Andy Lamont: You just put that up and warm up. They are only 150 bucks or something so it’s kind of for the job that it might do its pretty good value.

OSP: It’s more practical than trying to heat a hot water bottle.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly. That’s right and its instant and I haven’t got a battery grinder yet which is one of the things I want to have. So a little 4 inch grinders so if I need to cut stuff away.

New teak rails are fitted

OSP: And if you get the discs that carbon or something but way better for slicing through regiment trying to get a hacksaw or bolt cutters out if you have to cut mast away they are excellent for that.

Andy Lamont: So, one of the things I am thinking about is go the AEG route, getting the grinder and getting the jacket…

OSP: Happy days cutting the regiment away with your warm jacket on. So, if you can ask Jessica Watson questions about her circumnavigation, what would they be and when you start to think about some of the unknown few that lie ahead?

Andy Lamont: Well, there is lots of things we are really interested. One will be the polars for this boat. What strength and sea state did you change to different sails? That would be really good information. I might not do the same thing but it would be good reference point. So, that would be really interesting because basically it’s the same width it’s the same boat.

OSP: Yes. And traditionally if you find out you have too far that you should have changed sails once you break something.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly. So, that would be a good one to ask her. and then what would she do for power generation next time because I do know like I have read her book but she didn’t say anything negative in a book and good on her but there must have been things that really pissed her off and were really just bad systems or really just annoying and it would be good to know those things and what she thought about. She was very adamant she wanted the D400 generating wind system. Which is great it’s a beautiful systems its nice and quiet but she had to take it down every time it got over 30 knots and that type of thing. That will be interesting to find out power generation thing. But that will two key questions could be really interesting and also – I guess that will be the two main ones.

OSP: I saw a presentation she did she had some great photos of rebuilding her toilet after it had completely seized up.

Andy Lamont: Oh! Yes, right.

OSP: So, I know that she had that system failure which was pretty unpleasing by the sound of it.

Andy Lamont: Yes. So, that’s right. So I don’t have an electric toilet. I am just going to pretty much at the end of the day I don’t think you can beat the bucket, that a pretty good system. We always go over the side and that is not a good system single handed but I just got a pump out system – if you are just yourself on the boat then you sort of think that should be alright. I have go that system where your toilet paper and just get right down to the nitty gritty, you just take a big supply of paper bags so you use your toilet paper put in your paper bag, throw the toilet paper over to the side and pump out.

OSP: Because that’s the toilet paper that notoriously blocks those toilets up.  I am fan of the pump toilet it’s just one less thing that can fail electronically and it’s a pretty simple system and it only fails if you put too much down the hole.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly.

OSP: So, if you just don’t, that is probably not going to fail.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly.

OSP: If it’s not used by 10 people a day it’s definitely not going to get a lot of use.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly. Definitely when you sail solo the person that blocks the toilet up is the person who has to clean it.

OSP: Self governing.

Andy Lamont: Exactly, right. That is the best system I have seen it’s just the paper bag for toilet paper and a hand pump and what can go wrong.

OSP: It makes a lot of sense. Ok. So, what do you love being out in the ocean by yourself or what is it that you love about that because you are going to have a lot of that?

The final coat of paint goes onto Impulse's hull

Andy Lamont: I am interested to find out whether I will get sick of it because I am mid to late 50s and I am not sick of it yet so it’s quite interesting. For someone I am bit nerdy and that type of thing for something so basic to completely satisfy me and not just me hundreds of thousands millions of people. A whole thing about being on a boat and having nothing but the wind and I have never gone like this is boring of days and days and days and I am just like oh! God just give me another day so, it’s really interesting. It came down to the first time I got on a boat I was 11 years old and I got on a trailer sailor I was just watching sitting on the boat just watching the water separating from the stern of the boat it was a little hard chine trailer sailor.

OSP: Its quite hypnotising.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And it’s pretty much all I need. It’s a very weird thing if you get me off the water I need to be connected to the internet, I need to be get stimulating conversations, I need good friends, food and the excitement and the entertainment and everything and challenges. I mean there is this unending list of everything I need in my life so that I don’t go crazy from boredom or feel like I am wasting my life, but put me on a boat or a wind surfer or a kite board, that is all I need. It’s quite bizarre, isn’t it?

OSP: Its amazing isn’t it? And the nights will be as magical as the days for different reasons.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly. That’s it. The first ocean sailing I did from Brisbane to New Zealand some of those night sailing memories are just seared it into my memory I can remember them as if they were like yesterday and two days after I arrived in New Zealand was my 18th birthday and that was 40 years ago.

OSP: Its quite incredible.

Andy Lamont: Its just like yesterday. They are the peak moments of your life. For me, the peak of your life are your children being born and all obviously getting married and all that but the peak sort of – I am not a spiritual person but they are the spiritual moments of my life.

OSP: I think what I found is when you are out there on the ocean and it’s just you, there is not land on sight, there is not ships, it’s just you and the ocean and you are on the circular plate because everywhere you look every direction it’s just the horizon in this crowded world you got a piece of the world just to yourself and its perfect an un-spoilt and its magical and even the sea life comes to life. The light show that happens below the water once you really adjust your eyesight and the stars are like you never see on the land because of all the smoke and light interference. It’s quite stunning. It’s hard to explain.

Andy Lamont: As the stars have meaning to you as well. One rises on the horizon you follow that for a while.

OSP: You can see the shooting starts occasionally.

Andy Lamont: Its nice.

OSP: Well its good you are going to have about 300 days of that. So, when you are not sleeping or tending to your daily tasks in terms of checking on chafe and wear and tear and doing bits and pieces, what else are you taking along to be able to occupy your time?

Andy Lamont: Well, I will take a guitar a ukulele and some harmonicas so they are the three instruments.

OSP: But the audience will love you.

Andy Lamont: I will play some music and I will take probably a couple of kindles and iPad and all the books I can fit on that because I love reading. So, that would be pretty much all I need because I wouldn’t be bored. I can play music, I can read and I can even maybe write some stuff and that’s probably a full day.

OSP: And you have got a plan for each meal.

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: After you finish this meal you start planning for the next one.

Andy Lamont: And probably make bread and do some other little sort of nice things during the day when the weather is right.

OSP: And put plenty of sleep in the bank so you keep topping your sleep up.

Andy Lamont: Yes. That’s then I guess that’s a really important thing, isn’t it? Making sure that I don’t get fatigued and don’t enjoy something so much that I sort of don’t leave enough sleep in the bank, sleeping all the time. But that is another thing about being on a boat which I never have trouble sleeping. It’s just I don’t know if it’s the same for you.

OSP: It’s the best sleep; it’s the most restful sleep I have ever have.

Andy Lamont: Yes, so you just put you head down and the next thing you know your asleep.

OSP: And it’s the only place I can sleep during the day. I normally lie down and sleep during the day but on a boat once you are in that rhythm about day 3 or 4 you just lay down and sleep because it’s almost like if the motion is great and you know your body needs it, it just changes your whole ability to rest and recharge.

Andy Lamont: So, that would be my daily routine I guess. One of the things I was thinking of doing like I would love to learn to play the bag pipes. I don’t know whether I would have the time to do that but I thought that would be fun. You mentioned like in the middle of a foggy day, in the middle of the ocean just the sound...

OSP: It would be stunning, wouldn’t it?

Andy Lamont:…on a quiet day with sort of low fog and cold and just the sound of bag pipes…

OSP: Just come rolling out of the mist.

Andy Lamont: Yes. So, anyway I have never played bag pipes but I can’t imagine it would be that hard.

OSP: I was forced to as a child.

Andy Lamont: Oh, truly?

OSP: However, I thought it was quite glamorous until I realised you spend the first two years learning to play I don’t know what it called but it’s like the flute part, you don’t see the bag for the first two years.

Andy Lamont: Oh!

OSP: So, until you learn to play the flute part that plugs into the bag – pretty much so you have got to wait two or three years before you are given a bag. I didn’t last that long.

Andy Lamont: So, you can play the piccolo

OSP: Exactly, so, I didn’t get to the good part but obviously it’s an amazing sound. So, what resources have you used to plan this trip? Where have you turned for information, research and advice?

Andy Lamont: I guess Tony Mowbray has been a help, so he’s been great. I have spoken to him. I sailed back from Adelaide with him. So, he sailed around in a Cole 43 nonstop unassisted. I read a lot of books of course John Gower and Kevin Costin they have taken me on as a bit of a project because really at the end of the day even though sailing has been my sport, ocean sailing I pretty much knew nothing and pretty much still know not much. So, they are both experienced ocean racers. So, they keep telling me like I am crazy going around with a slow boat I should be going around in a fast boat and they just think its nuts to go around in an S&S 34. You should go in something that goes faster than the waves. That’s one opinion. It’s quite a good opinion anyways except that the evidence just doesn’t beat it out. It’s the slow boats that complete.

The gold stripe is added to the hull as the finishing touch

OSP: They get there.

Andy Lamont: They get smashed along the way but it’s the fast boats that have problems. On a crewed fast boat going downwind at 20 knots well they are no problem, you have got someone on the helm all the time but on auto-pilot the boat has to be like an open 60 or an open 40 with all the systems been built to broach it has to be that type of boat to sail under auto-pilot. Like a lot of them don’t finish.

OSP: They break down and you are taking five times the overall cost plus and they are more demanding to sail and things are happen fast with bigger loads so you can get injured too and sleeping is probably a lot harder when you punching through stuff at 20 knots and when you are rolling along nicely.

Andy Lamont: Like downwind those boats are sailing. They just flat and stable and fast…

OSP: And wet.

Andy Lamont: Yes, if you haven’t got someone on the helm 24/7 then you relying on the autopilot so it’s the slow boats they are the ones that can do it on a budget unless your budget is in the millions. I don’t think a little maybe an Atlantic crossing on a small fast boat would be alright but unless you have got a really big budget with like some of these autopilots which are coming up of the shelf models now but they are pretty high end systems and they take in account the yaw of the boat so and everything inside it, they are not going to approach on a wave or…

OSP: And you still need a back up for them because otherwise if they fail your trip is over.

Andy Lamont: Yes. If an IMOCA boat or class 40 boat loses its electrics it’s just over.

OSP: Yes. And then working 24/7 under reasonable loads too.

Andy Lamont: Yes. Exactly and it happens. Whereas to have the systems would cost more than this boat the whole trip.

OSP: So, putting a Ferrari engine in a Skoda or something…

Andy Lamont: Yes. So, that’s all their opinions which is I respect their opinions but I just think look! This boat has been around the world more than anyone and at the end of the day everyone agrees: The S&S 34 you are going to get there.

OSP: Yes, it’s not going to break in half and sink.

Andy Lamont: Yes. And it’s not break any records but you are going to get there. But they have been great Mabo and Kozzie have been a real help for me and pretty much they are the main two guys that have been helping me out apart from everyone at the club here too, it’s just interesting like just the doing sailing I am doing here. Even, everyday you go out you are kind of learning a little but more, you tweak a bit more, don’t you?

OSP: Yes. that’s is right and the more people hear about your story and plans and what people popup and contribute also ideas and obviously the help and the strategic all that will create a bit of ground swell. You have to go now because once you tell people about it you are first taking the ground. Did you ever read that book about the guy that did that very first solo trip? He went out there and sailed around in circles for several months just sort of thrown in the towel and disappeared.

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: Sad story.

Andy Lamont: Yes, a real sad story. Donald Crowhurst.

OSP: That’s it.

Andy Lamont: Its an interesting story, isn’t it? And then it was the slowest boat in the field was Robyn Knox Johnson’s boat that won.

OSP: That’s a very good example of choose a well prepared solid boat.

Andy Lamont: This is a good example of that rather than these trimarans. But those days have changed and now the – I guess it’s the most important example of that is pretty much about your mental state. So, it was Rob Knox Johnson that had pretty rock solid mental state where I think Bernard Mointessier I think it was the guy who was actually…

OSP: He was leading, right?

Andy Lamont: Yes.

OSP: And then he decided to carry on nonstop.

Andy Lamont: Yes. Exactly. So, he carried on. So, his state wasn’t to finish the race, his state was to keep sailing I guess and there were a few others there. It was pretty interesting story.

Andy in action in his kitesurfing training business

OSP: Great story and Robin Knox Johnston story is a good example of if you know your boat from end to end and you have got confidence in it then everything comes from confidence in your boat. I think the only think he didn’t like was he had a cover over his heel as a form of antifoaming and it started leaking into something and he had to get off the bottom in the Southern Ocean and go down below hammer a nail some patches on the boat or something and sharks were hovering around so…

Andy Lamont: He talked about that so matter of fact, I will just have to jump under hold some copper nails in my mouth. Have you ever tried to nail something underwater I would drop the nail anyhow.

OSP: I have tried to swing a hammer underwater you can’t do it. But he saw a great white shark and he short it but he figured there wasn’t any other so he as safe to proceed. I would be thinking about the other 100 waiting there too. Anyway, so great story. This is a bit of Mount Everest in terms of challenges short of going somewhere crazy like North Pole or South Pole. Have you thought of beyond the trip in terms of what happens when you get home and what you do next?

Andy Lamont: Well, definitely, I am ready for a new change in my life. I have run the same business with my wife for 20 years and she has done most of the work. I was basically on the kind of ideas guy and get everything rolling and doing all then we are a great team in that it works really well for me and she sort of figured out after 20 years it doesn’t actually work so well for her because we both really want to do some other things in our lives. So, that is why I did a law degree so I would like to do something with that when I get back and we would like to do some public speaking if that comes up after the trip then really life’s over too quickly isn’t it.

OSP: It is, far too quickly.

Andy Lamont: But luckily I am 57 I am fit enough and its interesting because I have had a fantastic life from the time I was an adult say from the time I was 20 to the time I was 57, that’s 37 years. Like it’s quite possible to have another 37 years of being active and doing stuff with the advances in medicine and all that type of thing. But even another 20 years its whole another life.

OSP: It is and once I was racing flying fifteens I sailed at the nationals against a guy who I thought this was in 2009 I thought he was in his early 60s and so it is 50 boats and flying fifteens are quite demanding to sail, he finished I think 7th at the nationals. He had been a boat builder all his life, he was 86 years old and still racing at a really physically level. I thought that is a great example of someone who has stayed healthy stayed active and he got to 60 and he has added another quarter of a century of active sailing to his life. I have always remembered that example.

Andy Lamont: It is. Its great and I have a friend a great role model who I have wind surfed with and kite surfed with for the last 20 years and he is a keener kite surfer than me, he is out every windy day and he is 69.

OSP: Wow!

Andy Lamont on the S&S 34 'Impulse' at the Southport Yacht Club

Andy Lamont: It doesn’t matter how big the waves are he is just there and at 69 these people they do forge a pathway don’t they. You don’t have to sort of get to your 50s and 60s and start to slow down you can just turn another page and open a new chapter in your life and do something new and exciting. Yes, that is what I want to do and the other great chapter of my life will be becoming a grandfather, which is going to be fun. So, they are all great things as well. There is a lot to look forward to and when we get back whole new chapter to write I guess.

OSP: It’s been great spending the time with you this morning. I think we have got two episodes out this we are at the two hour mark which is great and its going to be excellent Andy following your journey over the next few months as you prepare to depart and then keeping in touch with you as you head off around the world and seeing how your experience is going. So, thank you so much for sharing your story and I know people listening to this find it fascinating, find it inspiring as well and I just shows you that if you put your mind to something the financial barrier is not the bigger issue or the age barrier it’s just putting your mind to it and heading down the path and certainly the departure day will roll around.

Andy Lamont: If anyone can take anything from what I am doing you can fail your way to your goal when my goal was to leave in 2004. It’s been a massive failure and a lot of detours but failure is just someone said I don’t know who it was, someone once said that failure is a real essential part of any journey. No journey and nothing happens without failing.

OSP: Yes. And the irony is if we didn’t put these unrealistic timeframes against things other than the timeframe you did everything else right because you are about to go.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly.

OSP: If you hadn’t put and unrealistic timeframe you would have said the plan just took a little longer.

Andy Lamont: Yes, exactly.

OSP: The plan has turned out…

Andy Lamont: And that is the way I look at it.

OSP: But as often if we are not unrealistic about timeframes we don’t actually push ourselves hard enough to even get to what is a reality, otherwise if you just said I will do it in 10 years, of course 10 years comes and goes and there is no stake in the ground. Well, thank you Andy and we look forward to catching up and updating things as they unfold and good luck on all of your plans and preparations. I am sure you will start to have all sorts of people popping up the out of the woodwork and offering support and help, which will help you prepare for some of those extra things on your wish list that will get you off on the right foot with your fantastic lifetime bucket list type opportunity.

Andy Lamont: Well, that will be great, it doesn’t matter like when someone says what kind of things are you looking for and I said, “even a can of coke would be great” like anything would be alright. So, thanks so much for your interest and I look forward to speaking with you again.

OSP: My pleasure, great, thanks Andy.

Interviewer: David Hows

Checkout out the article on Andy Lamont in the Gold Coast Bulletin that was published following our podcast interviews with him.

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Episode 1: Rob Mundle Show Notes

OSP: So, folks this week we are with Rob Mundel. We are onboard Rob’s catamaran ‘Toucanoes’ down at the Southport yacht club. Welcome along Rob and thanks for joining us on the ocean sailing podcast.

Rob Mundle: Thanks mate great to be here.

Rob Mundle at home at the Southport Yacht Club

OSP: So, Rob has a really fascinating background that goes back probably closer to half a century, than to decades when it comes to sailing, writing, researching, commentating and really quite a fascinating background and they way it fits together explains why you are such an authority on writing and commentating and you do it on such a way that the layman can understand it. When I look back on your history in terms of your early days in journalism, what was the point on the road that the sailing in maritime became a passion for you and what drove that to the writing that you have done and the books that you have written?

Rob Mundle: Well, it was literally in the blood. My great great grandfather was the master of a clipper ship square-rigger, bringing migrants and cargo to Australia. Every other senior member of the generation of George Valentine Mundle, as they have been have all been masters or gone to sea to earn a living. I am the first senior member of the generation not to but I guess it was inevitable that I took this course and a pad and a pen and finished upon the water.

My first boat was a sandpit boat my father built at home when I was about 18 months old. I have photos of it with my brother, made out of a crate and a broomstick for a mast. I set that up in the backyard every time the wind was blowing and I was sailing around the world.

Then a mate of mine who lived for sailing was talking me about sailing. One day he came out of the blue and said do you want to come sailing with us this season; we have a spot in a 12-foot skip? And there we were 4 kids aged 11, 12, 13 and 14 in a 12-foot skiff at Middle Harbor in Sydney and that’s where the sailing side started.

As for the writing side it was never really on the horizon. I guess I just followed fate and that was the way it went. When I was at school we used to do these vocational tests to give you some guidance as to the way that you might go in the future. My number one guide was to become an engineer and that is understandable because my father was a maritime engineer on ships. That didn’t really surprise me, but somewhere there it also came up that I had an ability to write, which I didn’t see and didn’t really get excited about, it something I just did. And the when I left school I was sitting at home not having a clue (having got my leaving certificate) where I was going to go and what I was going to do.

I thought about going to university to study economics and things like that, but fate has always guided my life, I have just gone with the flow and I just said to my mother, “I am going to ring the Daily Mirror and see if they have got a job”. Now the Daily Mirror was the Sydney afternoon newspaper. I used to love going up for some unknown reason and buying it every afternoon, bringing it home and reading the paper, following the news and everything.  So I just called them out of the blue and said, “Do you have any jobs?” and I think I was 17 and they said we are interviewing for copy boys, who are like messenger boys and they said “come in for an interview”. So I went for the interview on a Monday and I had this gut feeling this could be the start of where I am going and I went in and they called back the following Friday and said “you have got a job as a copyboy in the daily mirror and we want you to start on Monday on 28 pound a week” and away I went.

OSP: Wow! What a start.

Rob Mundle: So from there as a copyboy, you are messenger boy but it was really exciting in the newsroom. Zel Rayburn was then the editor of the daily mirror, but there was this excitement 24/7 because we are doing 3 or 4 editions in an afternoon and you are running copy around from the sub-editor to the editor and reporters. Then I started doing police rounds, which is monitoring police radios. We don’t say much about that, but we were doing that back then and guiding reporters to activities around the city and that’s midnight till 7am, 5pm until midnight and all sorts of ridiculous hours.

I was also working my hours so I could go sailing down in Middle Harbor every Saturday afternoon. And then Blanche d’Alpuget who is now Bob Hawkes wife was yachting writer for the Sunday Mirror and she came to me one day, when they knew I loved sailing and she said “I am going on holiday” and I was still a copyboy, “do you think you can write the full page yachting column in the Sunday Mirror? And I did it and that really started my journalist career and things just went from there and life just fell into line all the way through.

OSP: What an opportunity.

Rob Mundle: Yes and I am a great believer in fate. You don’t fight issues, it’s amazing if you just go with the flow and the opportunities open up. I have been extremely fortunate in doing that in life and I am very lucky that I have been able to combine my sport with my career and its paid huge dividends. So the things I have done over the years and the opportunities it’s presented to me, has led to so many things. I started the Laser class in Australia because of journalism and I started the J24 class in Australia because of Journalism.

The Laser

I introduced both those classes to Australia because I was in a stage of life where I wanted a break from Journalism, because I looked at all of the journalists around me and said “my God do I want to be an alcoholic or a nervous wreck by the time I am 40? No I don’t”. So I had a bit if a break and again, that was a lucky opportunity for me where the director for the Mirror put me on a retainer to go around the world sailing full time and just doing the occasional report.

While I was in America I met up with Bruce Corby who was a journalist come designer and he said “come and see me, I am on Long Island and I have got this little sail boat you might like”. I was racing 18 footers back then. I went out and jumped on this little sailboat and it blew me away, it was the Laser. And I came straight back on shore and said to him and to Ian Bruce who was the builder out of Montreal; “I want this for Australia”. So, in 1973 I set up Performance Race Craft and started the Laser.

OSP: The laser is such a fundamental part of the stepping sailing from dingy sailing into high performance sailing.

Rob Mundle: Yes, absolutely.

OSP: It’s a great stable item now.

Rob Mundle: Yes. The great thing about the laser, it’s for any level of ability. It’s an Olympic class as we know but if you are a beginner, it’s so simple to sail and you don’t get overwhelmed by anything. It’s just the perfect boat and I saw that and was really excited even having come out of 18 footers and what we were doing. I thought this boat is so exciting and so good and simple to race, it was brilliant.

OSP: Simple to rig up and pack up.

Rob Mundle: Yes. Suited my intelligence.

OSP: You described as our nations maritime biographer and when you look at a book like First Fleet about a convoy of 11 ships that left England in May 1787, where do you go to start about researching the background and a back-story to put a book like that together?

Rob Mundle: Again good fortune and a stroke of luck. I never saw myself as a writer of maritime history. I did a book called Fatal Storm, which has been hugely successful for me internationally, the story of a 1998 Hobart Race and a few other books but then John Ferguson an old publisher guy, who was with Harper Collins “God bless him” said “I want to put some titles on the table for the publisher to consider” and he said “there are so many opportunities on maritime history, we are not really touching these days and I think there is a market there”.

And he said, “the first thing you should do is look at telling the real story of Captain Bligh, he was a great navigator, totally maligned by history and Hollywood. You should look at doing that book and you should get Rob Mundel to write it. Now I never ever thought about writing maritime history as I say and Helen Littleton rung me and said “this is who I am and this is what I am calling about” and I said “no”. And she said “but John Ferguson recommended you,” I said “no, I can’t see myself writing maritime history or biographies and I politely said no, but thank you for considering me, I don’t think I could do it to you or do it to me. I think I might embarrass everyone” and we left it at that and I said to my PA, “well, that was an offer to write maritime history, but I have said no” and she said “well fair enough”.

Anyway they rung back 3 weeks later with a 30% increase in the offer, so I suddenly found myself writing maritime history and it was very interesting. And so what happened there was they were right and I was wrong and I got into it and I absolutely loved it. And so I did Bligh, Flinders and Cook who all went together, because at some stage they would all sail together being involved in that.

And then the First Fleet was my idea and the publishers and I thought this is the glue to put it all together and it’s a big part of European heritage in Australia. So, I was thinking about writing that and coming off the Captain Cook book or my “Cook Book” as a lot of people call it and one day I was in Sydney and I was wandering through The Rocks area very early on a Sunday morning, in fact I was standing alongside a statue of Captain Bligh that I just realised was there.

Captain Cook by Rob Mundle

I heard this big booming voice and it was a tour guide with people following him around with Circular Key. He started telling them about the history of Circular Key and the First Fleet and everything else and I thought to myself, “this guy really knows his stuff”. So I politely cut him out of the pack, when they were walking on and introduced myself and fortunately he knew of my books. His name was Brian MacDonald and long story short I said, “look I think I want to talk to you and you could help me with my research”. And again it was fate, just a total stroke of luck and he said, “Well, come home for dinner next weekend and meet the wife and we will have a chat about it as well” and that is what I did. So we had a lovely dinner and a nice chat about what would be in The First Fleet. He said look come into the office, which was his second bedroom and there were 7,500 books in his private library on early Australian history.

OSP: Wow!

Rob Mundle: It was like striking gold. This guy is just a whiz. Most people aren’t remotely close to what he knows about early Australian history and he was a huge asset and he is currently working on my new book with me which is about the clipper ship era and the early Australian gold rush etcetera. So again that worked out. So that is where The First Fleet came from, but with my research, I go and contact him when I need information I am struggling with and with writing a book a year, its constant research and constant writing to keep it going and keep the flow going and a lot of that is back to my newspaper days as a journalist with The Australian in particular where you learn to write. I am different, I write newsy history, I write what people call readable history. It’s not heavy duty reading. It’s entertaining and factual and I have 5 best sellers in a row now, so I guess that’s is why, so it’s an energy and a form of entertainment, its factual.

OSP: It’s quite a gift to be able to catch a story in a factual way and then make it readable and entertaining without making it too heavy duty, too scientific and too hard to digest.

Rob Mundle: Yes, the big thing I learned in my newspaper days was if you can do that, you can be a journalist. You have got to have the reader interested in the first or second paragraph and if you haven’t got it by then you are going to lose them and it’s the same with the book. The first chapter really has got to be the tease so they say “I want to read this” and Fatal Storm was the classic example that I wrote. I thought I have got to give the book a chance for an international audience and it worked. The first person I introduced was an American and we had Glynn Charles the Englishman, but I wrote about a number of the people that would feature further down and the reader was saying, I like the sound of this guy, I hope he survives. So they want to read on to see what happens. It’s the tease again but it’s a desire to keep reading and I do that with all my books and fortunately it’s working for me.

OSP: It’s like a content marketing.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely, it is, so I love the writing. I am really enjoying it. I don’t know where I will go after this one if I do go anywhere, because I think after this latest book, the sixth, there is not a lot of maritime history left to write.

OSP: It’s a good stage to be at I guess. So, which of your books have had the most impact on you in terms of the creative process you have gone through and the things you have learned and the research you have done? Which has impacted you the most and been your favourite I guess?

Rob Mundle: Well, I would have to say Fatal Storm, because it was a real turning point for me and it put the Rob Mundle brand out there worldwide. The big thing was it was an absolute adrenalin pump and something I will never forget. I knew the book had to be the first out. I knew it had to be factual in every degree and this is where I was fortunate because I have covered 44 Hobart races and now I am in the thick of things. And when it all unfolded I had 30 mates, male and female missing and all their partners and parents ringing me because they couldn’t get information. “What do you know?” “What can you tell us?” And in an instant it was obvious that the story monstrous and it can’t be told in a newspaper, it can’t be told in a magazine, television can’t tell it, it’s a book.

Artists impression of Midnight Rambler in 98 Sydney Hobart

And while I was doing the TV and newspaper work I rung my secretary and said “look, I don’t know where this is going to go, but just grab every bit of information you can, every newspaper or whatever for me because I think there is a book here”. And anyway Harper Collins the publishers had the same idea and with them being part of the News Limited organisation, when I was working for News Limited, we crossed paths.

Anyway they said, “we want to write and book and we want you to do it”, and that became Fatal Storm, but the most exciting thing about it was I could ring people directly involved and they knew of me, I knew of them and we were all on the same page where we could converse properly and the questions weren’t embarrassing and it worked. All of that worked. I did 144 interviews I think, to get all that book together and they were just nonstop and at the same time I wrote 120,000 words in 12 weeks and that was just massive to get the book done to be first out. We were out In July that year.

OSP: Wow, so out 7 months after that fatal race in the previous December.

Rob Mundle: I started writing at the end of January and just went for it and still doing a lot of what I am doing now, research. There were some people who said no to interviews but interestingly enough when they realised what I was trying to do with the book, they actually called me back and said look I want to be part of it because I think it can contribute. One of the great things I think about Fatal Storm is that a lot of people worldwide, not just here treat it as a bible, because that book just shows how quickly and how easily things can go wrong. How if you are not prepared for the worst, then you are not prepared at all for anything. And a lot of people I know have that book onboard their boat and say to newcomers “read this before you go sailing, because I want you to know how bad it can get.” The other thing, which I find quite remarkable with it, is women really love reading it and that really staggers me. I have a huge following. Women have come up to me and said I never thought I would enjoy reading a book like that and I enjoyed that. So, that’s been fantastic.

OSP: Having read more than 100 books on ocean sailing and offshore sailing, Fatal Storm is the only book that I have read that really brings together the power of the ocean and of nature and what can really unfold. Reading it prior to an ocean crossing trip I did a couple of years ago, it gave me a really good appreciation of the fact that you are not going to be deploying your safety gear on a nice sunny day, you are more likely to be upside down, in the middle of the night, in the dark and maybe underwater, where you can’t see or hear anything and it really puts a whole new perspective on what safety is really all about. And if you get yourself into that situation, even with all the safety gear in the world, it’s probably still a 50-50 ball game as to whether you will make it out alive, especially if you have to get into a life raft.

Midnight Rambler going to windward under storm jib in 1998 Sydney to Hobart

Rob Mundle: Absolutely.

OSP: The story of I read about the life raft in Fatal Storm turning upside down and then of a small cut ….

Rob Mundle: Just ripping apart.

OSP: …and all the things that happened that you really didn’t appreciate when you think about the ideal side of yachting.

Rob Mundle: Too true. And you don’t want to be saying, “why didn’t I?” and you shouldn’t be saying why I didn’t die. As part of your preparation, just expect the worst and go from there. So, that book now I think it’s now heading for 250,000 copies, it’s in 6 languages and they have just re-released it worldwide. So it’s been something special for me.

OSP: And hopefully it will never be superseded right?

Rob Mundle: Well no, I don’t want to be doing another book, but I think too where you mentioned the conditions and one of the great advantages for me is in being a sailor and writer, I can translate those conditions, after seeing some really bad weather and force 10 winds as a result of sailing from the Bahamas to Bermuda and it wasn’t pretty through the Bermuda triangle.

You can talk about and explain what the conditions were like so people get the picture, whereas if you have never been there, never been exposed to bad weather or any great deal of sailing, you can’t translate it into something that the sailor and the public can appreciate and I think again that is one of the things where I have been lucky in life is being able to write about the sport. I write about things that are happening but put it into layman’s terms where the yachtie can still appreciate it and the layman understands it.

OSP: I think it’s a very good point because if you have never been in those conditions and they are not normally captured on camera because of how remote you usually are in those conditions. I think when I read the book and you talked about 30 metre seas and I think “that’s 100 feet, that’s a 13 story building”, it’s just puts into another perspective, that you could never ever possibly visualise without that level of granular description and then the howling of winds on top of that which is often the toughest part.

Rob Mundle: Well there are two things in the book that really drive that point home to some degree. There is one photograph we sent to AMSA was taken from 1,000 ft from a light plane; we had a 40 ft yacht in the image and a helicopter. So AMSA could gauge, get the dimensions of what was going on in that image. The wave was going away from the camera and breaking and they estimated that that wave was 25-30 metres high and breaking. Now that’s pretty serious stuff. And the other one we did which put into a perspective the public could understand, was an idea of putting the Sydney Opera house in the picture and putting the wave heights alongside, overlaying the Sydney Opera house. So you get an appreciation and suddenly you realise how bad it was.

OSP: And one of the interesting lessons in the 98 Hobart which was also reinforced in the Fastnet 1979 race, was the yacht Midnight Rambler that lost their cabin top and the crew all abandoned the boat taking to the life rafts. Well that boat was found still floating three days later and it was repaired and is still racing in Australia today and it was a great example of not leaving a boat until you have to.

You should always step up into a liferaft when your boat is actually sinking

Rob Mundle: Always step up into the life raft and never get off the boat until you have to do that.

OSP: At the last possible moment.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely. In Fastnet Force 10, John Rousmaniere’s book about the fatal 1979 Fastnet Race, Harry Cudmore and some mates were onboard in that race (Harry was the world half ton champion etcetera) and they were in an interesting dilemma, as much as it was a seriously bad storm, not as bad as the Hobart Race, but it was right up there and the helicopter was hovering overhead and the message came down to the boat “this is your last chance to get off tonight, we can’t come back tonight, if you want to get off, you get off now, or you stay on the boat overnight.” When there is a helicopter waiting, that is when you may think of getting off, especially if you don’t know if the weather is going to deteriorate further. Otherwise you stay on the boat and don’t get into the life raft until you really have to.

OSP: Life rafts look more like outdoor paddling pools

Rob Mundle: That’s right, kiddy wading pools.

OSP: So in that example it’s one thing to write about history, but how difficult is it to interview families and crew members of sailors who lost their lives in the process. How did you find that?

Rob Mundle: That part was difficult. Again it was surprising how many people wanted to talk to pass on the information. The hardest part was I did an update 10 years later when I went back and interviewed a lot of the people who had featured prominently in the original copy and what that did was really imprint very firmly on my mind, on my life and a lot of other people was how bad that race was still impacted people.

Some of them were still a mess some of them couldn’t work anymore. There is one young guy in there who subsequently committed suicide. It’s just terrible stuff and I have no doubt at all, that its come from those experiences and there are worst cases of sailors you just couldn’t talk to, but their mates were saying “you got to know about Bill” or whoever, “he is not doing it too well and he never has since that day”.

But then there were others who have gone and done 10 or 15, Sydney to Hobart races since and just accepted that as just something extraordinary happened in that race and they have continued on. But I guess it’s just the experience you have had and for a lot of people, you think about family and friends and everything else and why am I exposing myself to this possible danger so they go back to playing golf and lawn bowls instead.

OSP: I couldn’t think of anything worse.

Rob Mundle: Yes.

OSP: Okay, that’s interesting, tell me about how you got involved in the American Cup in the early days, because I guess my first memory is listening to Australia II racing the USA in the final race of the Americas cup in 1983 on a transistor radio at school in the classroom. I never even knew what the America’s Cup was, but the entire class started listening to it in the classroom and suddenly it’s the most important thing and since then the last 30+ years have really been incredible. How did you get involved?

Australia II crosses the finish line to win the Americas Cup in 1983

Rob Mundle: It’s interesting you say that because my first involvement with the Americas Cup was in 1963 when Gretel and Weatherly were racing and Gretel actually won the second race and in 1963 I was 16 or 15 or something 16, anyway I would wake up very early in the morning like 2:30 or 3 o’clock in the morning, lying in bed with a little transistor radio not much bigger than a mobile phone today, listening to the race live on the radio and it was just so exciting.

But when journalism came, my initial involvement was when Gretel and Vim were racing or sailing on the Sydney harbor in the lead up. But my first real media involvement came in 1983 and again I was absolutely blessed. I had done all my journalism and I had run Performance Sail Craft and then I set up a little sail boat marketing business in Sydney called Rob Mundel Sail Boat Centre, down near the Sydney Bridge in Middle Harbour and that was going rather nicely, but once journalism is in your blood you can’t get it out.

And I was still writing for magazines and things and this particular day, Peter Sutton, Kay Cottee’s husband, rang me and said “look (a journalist mate from back in the early days of the daily mirror) he said look “we are starting this sports show on Channel 10 with Ray Warren as our host and we want to be different we want to put sailing on it. Would you be interested in coming and doing stories on sailing?” I said, “I would love to, that will be great.” So I kept the sail boat business going and started doing that as well, but anyway long story short, suddenly the whole media bug was back and firing for me, so I got out of sail boat marketing and life went back to television and newspapers.

The Australian picked me up again and so that was 1982 and in early 83, Channel 10, I was doing more and more work for them and they were liking what I was doing for Good Morning Australia and stuff, t hey came to me and said “now Allan Bond has got this Americas Cup thing happening and we seem to think he might have a chance with this boat called Australia II, so we want to get involved, do you want to go to Newport Island and cover it for us?”

And I couldn’t get there quick enough. I was looking over my shoulder to make sure there was no one behind me they were talking to. Anyway so I went there to cover it for Australia and for Channel 10 and I had 5 months in Newport and that was the real turning point in my life as we now know; Australia II won and I was only live, there was 3 of us there Bob Lobel and a mate out of Boston who was a TV broadcaster for the American market and Dave Vitor who use to own Courageous and myself and we were on air for 8 hours and 10 minutes that day. No one apparently has ever been live on television for 8 hours and 10 minutes and that was the day we won the Americas Cup.

Australia II races Liberty in 1983, Newport Rhode Island for the Americas Cup

And suddenly my whole world exploded in front of me. Here I was, this new boy in television and suddenly I am worldwide and Australia-wide. But we didn’t realise when we were over in the USA, how big it was back here and to come back and start feeling it and I would walk down the street and people were coming up to me and saying, “are you Rob?” How exciting and so my whole television career went from there.

So, I went to Freemantle for 7 months in 1987 and so they were the glory days and they were back in the good days of television, where the budgets were unlimited and a helicopter was my taxi and all those sorts of things. It was a really good period in life and I think that launched me further up the track and that led to the book writing and everything else. Well I think my first real book came out as a consequence of 83 where I wrote a book about learning to sail, a very layman based book on learning to sail and that went pretty well and then my first real book was writing Sir James Hardy’s biography in 1992’ so now this latest book is my 16th.

OSP: Wow that’s a pretty good run rate.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely.

OSP: I read the book ‘Born to Win’ last year by John Bertrand and when you read about that event, they were almost the first sailing team that were semi-professional, where sports psychology was involved and they acted professionally and they went to bed on time. In reading about Australian teams in previous campaigns prior to 83 they turned up as a bunch of lads on a $20 daily allowance and went out late. So it’s like that was the turning point in which sailing started to become professional, when you see how they conducted themselves and that started opening the gate for sailing as a paid sport.

Rob Mundle: No doubt. Absolutely spot on. The big thing in 1983 was we played a psych game and we played it really well. The hiding of the keel was the best thing that could have been done and they played that game all the time. Bondy “God bless him” was just as much a part of it, but the real man was Benny Lexcen and what he did was brilliant. Warren Jones the manager just played the Americans to a break, it was super and I remember one day when it was happening, Bondy wanted to get involved because he was getting excited, so they had a press conference and they sent Bondy out to talk to the media and they said tell them that we are protesting the Americans under rule XYZ21b clause 4 or something.

The Australia II winged keel that was kept secret from the Americans

So he has gone out there with the claim and the Americans fell for it. There was no such rule. It was just feeding them and just making it more and more difficult and just keeping the Americans guessing and the interesting thing was the Americans actually had a chance, an opportunity to go and see the boat when it was being measured and they didn’t turn up. It was their own fault in so many ways. They could have known what the keel looked like and they could have grabbed that opportunity.

OSP: It might have been complacency.

Rob Mundle: I must say it’s really sad now seeing the Dutch again sticking their heads up and saying we designed the keel and we deserved the credit for it. Benny was just a genius and back in those days a lot of people would have contributed but Benny would have been the driving force, I have no doubt whatsoever and it’s just sad that he is not here to say “hang on guys, here is the truth” so they tend to say “we did it” and there is no one there to argue, but we all know Benny made a massive contribution to it and as Jim Hardy says “when it comes to putting coal into a steam engine to blow the whistle we don’t know which bit of coal does it.” But the concept was Benny’s and a lot of other people worked on developing that concept.

OSP: I have been reading about Ben Lexcen, he was quite an interesting character, genius in lots of ways and troubled in other ways.

Rob Mundle: Brilliant story; born in a little house on the banks of Lake Macquarie with a dirt floor, self-educated essentially, he taught himself how to use a computer, just an amazing guy. He was a good friend for a long while. And where his thinking was coming from all the time, you look at 18 footers he did Taipan and Venom he revolutionised 18 footers and he was playing with N plates back then, he had a thing about centre boards and rudders and all those sorts of things and his mind was always out there. The first boat that he designed for Bondy back in 1969 for the first Hobart Race I did, was the wooden Apollo and she was built in Monavale and all the frames were up that Benny had designed and he walked and said “take a little bit of that frame there, just flatten that out a little”. He could feel the water going around the boat and decided just take a little bit off here and a little bit off there and bingo and she was a great boat, fabulous boat.

OSP: He was just really gifted, one of a generation.

Rob Mundle:A bit like Herreshoff. Herroshoff had a similar sort of feel.

OSP: Not many people have ‘out-connored’ Dennis Connor over the years. He has certainly been the master of his game.

Rob Mundle: And again that was a lot of psych there, a lot of psych and Dennis in the end started falling apart. It’s a bit like what Jimmy Spithill did in last Americas Cup, his psych on the Kiwi’s absolutely destroyed them and it was really interesting to watch, because he was telling porkies half the time, but the Kiwis fell for it. “Well we are working on our boat all night and we are modifying stuff” rubbish, it wasn’t happening at all, but they fell for it and then Spithill turned around and said to Barker “they are 8 -1 up, imagine if they lose it” Well Barkers turned around, well it absolutely smashed him and sadly again its all the psych. The Kiwis put the cart before the horse, they had the jet waiting to take cup to New Zealand, had the street parade planned and everything else, they still hadn’t won the cup.

Emirates Team New Zealand 8-1 up, yet go on to lose the 2013 Americas Cup

OSP: After that they opted for a lay day when they could have carried on.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely. Yes, and again pressure and that’s the way to win these days. I hope that Australia gets back into it. I think we will one day and the next generation of boats is going to be really interesting.

OSP: When you think about the Americas Cup, the way its evolved and the way it continues to evolve, how much do you think the evolution of the cup and the deed of gift is around the holders raising the bar to make sure the next challengers find it harder to get a leg up versus the desire to keep Americas Cup yachts at the leading edge of sailing technology, innovation and advancement?

Rob Mundle: Well, it has never been any different since 1851. It’s the oldest trophy in the history of sport. It’s always about raising the bar, dirty tactics and all of that. That is beauty of the Americas Cup, its part of the intrigue. Some people have said to me “these catamarans are not the Americas Cup” but I think it is, that is where the world is going.

The Americas Cup has always been at the forefront of design, technology and equipment. We sailors really get excited about a lee bow situation, where the commentator is saying; “Oh they have gained a metre, they have got a lee bow situation” and we are going wow. Now the poor kids who we want to get excited about our sport and get into our sport don’t understand that terminology so there is nothing exciting about it for them.

That is why I think these catamarans are just sensational and I don’t know where it’s going to go from here, but they have had to bring the size of the boats down this year because it was getting scary as to where the performances was going to go, if they stayed with the same big boats. They would be doing 50+ knots downwind and 30+ knots upwind and people would be killed literally. I know we have had one tragic accident there and they are very dangerous. So they have reined them in and brought them down in size, but it’s still going to be spectacular.

One thing that’s really firmly imprinted in my mind about how good the last Americas Cup was the energy and excitement. I don’t if they have captured that same energy and maintained that towards this next cup. The classic was Thea Williams widow of Keith Williams who was a legend here on the Gold Coast. He founded Hamilton Island, Sea World, was the pioneer of theme parks here on the Gold Coast. I was up having coffee here in Tedder Avenue here in Main Beach one day and Thea said, “Rob, this Americas Cup, what are these boats all about?” I said, “Thea, its where it’s at, its where it’s going to go.” She said, “I have never seen anything more exciting in my life.” She was one who knew nothing about sailing but was getting up at 6am and watching the Americas up.

Oracle successfully defends against Emirates Team New Zealand in the 2013 Americas Cup

OSP: Yes, its interesting because in the end it was the fairy tale finish, because they set out to create this global spectacle that’s made for TV in 45 minute chunks and when it was 8-3, it was not looking like that would be the case, but they couldn’t ask for a better finish to the event and a better way of captivating people, it really was a fairy tale finish.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely, it was really exciting. The Americans, or the Australians really, because it was Australians in all the key positions. AUS or USA, it’s the same letters only turned around a bit. And again you see the talent that we have got involved there, it’s a shame in so many ways we are not involved. The next one is going to be exciting, I am looking forward to it. I just hope they get the right amount of breeze in Bermuda so we see them at their best.

OSP: Yes. Watching the last round of the AC45 fleets in Oman in maybe 7 or 8 knots of breeze, doing 3 knots round the marks was not exactly thrilling.

Rob Mundle: I know that’s like on Toucanoes, they were only just faster than that.

OSP: They need to get up and go.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely.

OSP: So as recently as a couple of weeks ago, there is a talk by Oracle of returning to monohulls if they win the 2017 Americas Cup due to the lack of match racing and tacking ability in catamarans. They have said that now they are in 45 foot Cats they are not exactly unique anymore with the other Extreme Cat Events also operating globally. Is there is future with a hybrid version of a Comanche-style 100-foot foiling monohull? Is that a possibility? What do you think the Americas Cup needs to do next in terms of direction?

Will we see a 100 foot version of this foiling monohull in the Americas Cup one day?

Rob Mundle: Look, it’s a wait and see really. Let’s see how the 45’s go. I think they could be throwing a few dead fish out there as well because Tom Eman’s getting these new monohulls going in California and I think let’s get this one out of the way, but the one thing about sailing is we have got to have events where there is wind. What really made the Americas Cup television worthy was when it was in Freemantle. It was by far the best Americas ever with the monohulls there in windy conditions.

If we are going to make it entertaining we have got to where there is wind. And we had terrible problems in Auckland a few years ago where races were cancelled and when you have got a worldwide television audience and you have got to say “sorry we are not racing today because there is no wind” its not good. You have got to think audience, you have got to think marketing, you have got to think promotion and you have got to think the sport.

So I think it’s a wait and see here and I think who knows, if Oracle does win it, will they go again? They may say “we are not interested in going again”. Larry Ellison might say that’s enough for me. The Americas Cup will never die and I think it will be great to see the right sort of boats like a Comanche-style or whatever and sailing in big breezes, big spinnakers because the public and the sailors love drama. They love drama, they love excitement. You look at motor racing, half the time people watch it just for the crashes, they don’t watch it for the skill and they want to be entertained with the near misses etcetera. They call this concept “a thousand sadistic sports fans”.

OSP: It’s some interesting speeds now reached by 60 foot foiling monohulls with the big wide hulls.

Rob Mundle: The 60 footer around the world boat is unbelievable with what they do and where is it going to go? Who knows but I think I might have been born about 60 years too early.

OSP: So, tell me about your role on the Selection Committee for the Americas Cup Hall of Fame?

Rob Mundle: Wow, it just came out of the blue and yeah I am honored I am the only Australian on the Americas Cup Hall of Fame Selection Committee and it’s a group of people who have had relatively long standing association with the Americas Cup and each year we have a telephone hookup worldwide, we have nominations. We will nominate who we think is worthy of induction into the Hall of Fame.

It’s at the Herreshoff Maritime Museum just outside Newport and we go through a voting process, a discussion process and we did that just 5 or 6 weeks ago and we were on the phone worldwide for an hour and a half to two hours and then finally we have a vote and work out our worthy winners. And that’s the way it happens. When I got involved in the early days Americans were very anti, surprise, surprise, Ben Lexcen being nominated for the Hall of Fame. So we had to drive that one and get him in there and we did. So that really helped the cause there. It’s a very interesting cross section of people and I think of the people they get in each year. This year, there have been a bit politics for one individual who will remain nameless, but he is on the way to being inducted in the Americas Cup Hall of Fame and not sure if it’s happening this year or if it’s happening next year, but it will happen. So, it’s great, it’s an honour.

Herreshoff Marine Museum, home of the Americas Cup Hall of Fame

OSP: Okay, that pretty interesting. Who are some of the most memorable personalities you have met in Americas cup community?

Rob Mundle: Oh wow! Benny Lexcen not hard to say, most intriguing. I love Iain Murray, I have a lot of time for Iain Murray. Tom Blackaller who was the equivalent of Dennis Connor in so many ways died way too young. He was my co-commentator at the Americas Cup in Freo and he and I had a great rapport. I had a huge level or respect for him. There are so many in it because it’s the elite, its the very very best. Heuy Trehan, tactician on Australia II. He and I were great mates, we had a little quarter tonner ‘Waikikamukau’ which was the first Bruce Farr keel boat ever come into Australia and we won Australian JOG championships.

Huey is just an absolute delight to sail with and you learn so much when you are sailing with a guy of that talent and Grant Simmer who was navigator for that final Americas Cup race. When you talk to those guys about what they did for that final downwind leg and how they calculated where to be and what to do, it was just brilliant and no disrespect to John Bertrand but their tactical and navigation contribution to that final leg downwind was just brilliant and they did everything expected of them and well done them. So, look I could go on and on and on Blakey (Sir Peter Blake) was there and the old red socks era out of New Zealand. So, yes there is just so many.

OSP: And it’s probably fair to say almost you are equivalent but not probably quite on the writing level but certainly on the broadcasting level in New Zealand; PJ Montgomery, have you crossed paths with Peter over the years?

Rob Mundle:   Oh God yes, everywhere. The Olympics, the Americas Cups and everything, we are good mates and PJ does a fantastic job and he has been duly recognised in New Zealand. His energy and his enthusiasm and I think his contribution is one of the reasons for sailing being such a high profile sport in New Zealand. And I think New Zealand owes that man a lot when it comes to driving this whole Americas Cup, Whitbread and now the Volvo Round The World Race. He’s a good bloke.

OSP: His voice really created a legacy in terms of sailing for the layman and New Zealand has grown an industry off the back of that enthusiasm. I don’t think they would have had the same growth and demand without Peter.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely, no doubt whatsoever.

OSP: He has made sailing more exciting than it is most of the time.

Rob Mundle: Well that’s the talent of a TV commentator.

OSP: Okay, so jumping back to the Sydney to Hobart Race, this is only one of the most revered ocean races on the planet and you have competed in it 3 times.

Rob Mundle: Yes.

OSP: You have been a commentator for decades and you have been media manager for the last 8 years for the super-maxi Wild Oats. So what is it about this race that entrances a nation on Boxing Day as 100 plus boats sail out of Sydney Heads with many crew members that have completed that race many times, sometimes for decades and often well to their 80s from a competitive point of view?

The 100 foot super-maxi 'Wild Oats 11' powers to windward in the Sydney to Hobart Race

Rob Mundle: Two things; timing, it’s the perfect time of the year for the media so it gets a profile and it’s in the holiday season but it’s a big part of the history of the racing as well. There is no race in the world to compare with the Sydney to Hobart. If you are going to tick every box as far as a sailor is being concerned, you haven’t ticked every box until a Hobart race is in there. It came straight off the back of World War 2. We had a very war weary community, an Australian society who were looking for new adventure, new things going on in their life and suddenly up bobbed the Sydney to Hobart Race which was going to be a cruise and Ellingworth turned around and said hey let’s have a race, 9 yachts in that first race and the newspapers promoted it, the public went to the headland, we had drama and as much as Rani disappeared of the face of the earth and suddenly bobbed up and got line honours and handicap honours.

Everything was right about it for the Australian community, so, it went from there. Right from the very first race its future was guaranteed. Where the race is unique is that it’s got so many elements to it and so many unknown qualities. It’s the only race in the world that starts in a harbour and finishes in a river. You have got a coastal element to it going down the New South Wales coast with currents with southerly busters, you go inshore and you go offshore so its very tactical in that respect. Then you have got one of the worst stretches of water in the world, which is Bass Strait, so shallow as we saw in 1998, massive waves, current coming down the coast, being compressed by a storm coming out of the west and just heinous conditions.

And then you have got the Tasmanian Coast where you quite often you get westerlies and you get all sorts of funny breezes down there and then you got a spectacular finish across Storm Bay and up the Derwent River. So there is no race in the world to compare to it, with what it can confront you with and what it offers in terms of excitement and it’s a fabulous way to get from one party to another.

Line honours winner Comanche passing the Organ Pipes along the Tasmanian Coast in 2015 Sydney Hobart Race

OSP: It’s a special place to be.

Rob Mundle: Well, I have sailed in and I think I have covered 44 now, the first time I went down there, the plane had propellers so that tells you something.

OSP: So if someone is listening to this podcast and thinking about either competing in the Sydney to Hobart Race or Hamilton Island Race Week, how would you sum up the experience required?

Rob Mundle: Yes, I am one of the organisers of Hamilton Island Race Week and I think the only person to have been at all of them, its number 33 this year. The best way is like what we are offering here at the Southport Yacht club. Get into sailing through our twilight sailing, then into offshore opportunities and work your way up. To go and jump straight into a Hobart Race is really is dangerous more often than not and you are putting a lot of pressure on the other crew if you don’t have any real experience. So, work your way up, do twilights, do club racing, do weekend racing.

Hamilton island race week around the Whitsundays - there is no better place to sail in Australia or the world for that matter and you get all sorts of conditions, great people, great atmosphere but slowly, slowly, catchy monkey. And again as we discussed earlier when we were talking about Fatal Storm, the Hobart race can be incredibly dangerous and you have got to be really prepared for it. So, it’s not something where like people say “I am going to sail around the world”. There is a guy here on the Gold Coast who bought a yacht to sail around the world, 6 months later he sold the yacht because he suddenly realised how hard it’s going to be. So just work your way up.

OSP: And probably 90% of its in the preparation planning and training especially in the race to the south.

Rob Mundle: Yes and only go with people you know and can trust.

OSP: Yes that’s a good point because you are really going to have to count on them…

Rob Mundle: Absolutely.

OSP: … all sorts of situations.

Rob Mundle: …In any sort of sailing. I wrote Allen Bonds authorised biography and I said, “What is it about ocean racing?” and he said,” I could be sitting on the rail of the boat going windward and the guy next to me can be anything in life, a labourer, an accountant, a millionaire, he can be anything.” But when you are out there in an ocean race you are only as strong as the bloke next to you. It’s a chain of energy, a chain of people and you are only as good as the weakest link. And he said that is the beauty of this sport it’s a leveller and its just a very exciting experience.

OSP: It’s certainly a great leveller and with all the variables; every day is different, every race is different and every year is different.

Rob Mundle: Absolutely.

Bob Oatley, the inspiring leader that gave so much to yachting

OSP: Ok, so Bob Oatley passed away recently and he has is an icon here in Australia in terms of his profile and his contribution obviously on the winery side of his life, but also on the sailing side, how would you sum up his contribution to yachting in Australia?

Rob Mundle: Bob is the greatest man I think I have ever met and very close friend for 40+ years. His contribution to the sport is enormous, (forget the boats), creating opportunities for young people to go sailing. Bob was a great leader and a great believer in people and if he saw talent Bob really encouraged it and presented the opportunities. And he has launched more young people into our sport who are now in the upper echelon I think than anyone. Sure he had a big boat but he went out of his way to provide those opportunities.

He was an absolute inspiration in so many ways and he really will be missed although I think Sandy his son, who is going to run the campaign, the boat is going to keep going, is pretty much a clone and is equally enthusiastic. So hopefully we will see the Wild Oats 11 campaign or if there’s going to be a Wild Oats 12 campaign who knows, will go on for some years to come. But what Bob did with his boats and he was adventurous, he essentially introduced the canting keel to offshore racing at the world grand prix level. He has never missed a beat with keeping ahead of, or up with the latest technology. Everything about what he has done personally has been nothing short of exciting.

OSP: Wow. That’s great summary of a great individual. I think we were cheated a little bit last year with Wild Oats tearing its mainsail having to pull out of the Sydney Hobart and not getting to see the outcome of that new bow section.

Rob Mundle: That would have been and I not saying because I am involved with Wild Oats 11, but I am not going to say if we had gone on, we would have won it, we can’t say that because it’s an ocean race, but it would have been a very interesting finish, I think it’s the best way to put it. And the guys were first to admit it was ‘operator error’ on the boat. They have dealt with countless reefing situations on the boat before but they got caught by a squall, which they couldn’t see in the middle of the night and there was a bit of operator error and ‘bingo’ the race is over. And you get that the mainsail just started shredding and sail makers on board, they got to onto the deck, and the sail makers just said we are going north, we are going home, there is no way we can go on with this.

Wild Oats 11 gets its new 10m long bow section fitted for 2015 Sydney to Hobart Race

OSP: Yes unfortunately and so do you think they will be back this year in the same format with the same hull?

Rob Mundle:   Definitely. And I will give you a scoop because I am writing it next week so don’t put this in the podcast, but you probably will; Wild Oats 11 will be at Hamilton Island race week this year.

OSP: Great. Quite a spectacle.

Rob Mundle: So you better bring Ocean Gem.

OSP: I will be there.

Rob Mundle:   Fantastic.

OSP: So, Rob I haven’t known you that well. I have been racing at the club for a couple of years. You have been racing here the majority of the time, I think on other boats and more recently on your own and your are doing surprisingly well with 5 wins from…

Rob Mundle: From 7 starts, not bad for a caravan

OSP: You are pretty understated in terms of what you do and honestly if someone was walking past you at the club, they wouldn’t know its you that’s lining the book shelves in the book shop and the voice on TV when it comes to Sydney Hobart and Hamilton Island race week and it appears you have crammed a hell of a lot into your life…

Rob Mundle: Still going, no stopping

OSP: So, what’s next?

Rob Mundle: And that’s the thing ‘fate’, just go with the flow. I have always gone with the flow and I was amazed how opportunities have bobbed up. To be philosophical I think too many people get to where they should be and they don’t stop to enjoy the roses and go with the flow, they have got to fight on and on and on.

If you go with the flow you can only ever have a good life and its stress free. And it’s amazing what bobs up because your subconscious is always looking for the opportunity, you are not driving yourself toward looking for opportunity. And I think thats where I have been very lucky and I will finish this book and I will do the Hamilton race week and I will do the Hobart Race and probably other nice things between now and then who knows what next year will bring, just let it happen.

Audi Hamilton Island Race Week where 200+ yachts gather for Australia's most prestigious regatta each August

As I say, the early days in my television career here, I was the new boy on the block and then within a year because we won the Americas Cup, there I am standing on the lawn of the White House doing live cross for TV back in Australia and I have got all these TV mates saying, “How come you have only been on TV for a year and here you are standing on the lawn of the White House with the President of the United States in front of you and you are doing live crosses?” It’s just the way it’s been, I have been very lucky.

OSP: Well I think you are a great example of; if you are passionate about what you do, you do it well and you can truly only master it, if you are passionate about it and you are really have combined your passion with your career. 

Rob Mundle: It’s the old story, do what you know and do it well and don’t try to be something you are not.

OSP: Well, I think that’s a great way to wrap up this conversation and it’s been really fascinating Rob and I am sure there is number of other chapters and opportunities ahead when we could dive deeper into just some of the things you have done given the length and breadth of what you have done. Its certainly been a privilege to spend the last hour talking to you and understanding more about Rob Mundle and it’s been a real privilege to have you on the ocean sailing podcast. I am sure this will be extremely popular with our listeners as it unfolds over the next few months.

Rob Mundle: I really appreciate it and I wish you well with the podcast, I think it’s fantastic what you are doing.

OSP: That’s great, thanks Rob.

Rob Mundle:   My pleasure.

Best selling Books by Rob Mundle

Click on cover image to read more or order online today

Fatal Storm: The Inside Story of the Tragic Sydney-Hobart Race
Hell on High Seas: Amazing True Stories of Survival Against the Odds
Great South Land: How Dutch Sailors Found Australia and an English Pirate Almost Beat Captain Cook...
Flinders: The Man Who Mapped Australia
Bligh: Master Mariner

Interviewer: David Hows

The First Fleet
Cook

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